TravelRunner404

Frustrated with Setting Monitor to 30hz - An Alternative...

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Posted (edited)

Hey Guys,

I am not a huge fan of setting my monitor at 30hz because of the lag.  It frustrates me and for whatever reason, I find it noticeable and annoying.  Trying to do anything with my mouse is simply not anywhere near the same as when I have things set at 60Hz.  Obviously, 30hz, VSync TB, unlimited frames are the current gold standard.  Locking the sim at 25 FPS seems to be the second, but in my testing and research, I have found a great alternative, that I am very happy with.  I am aware that this topic has been debated ad nauseam so I did do some actual testing to try and back this up as a good alternative.  I am hoping a few people will try it out as well.

Aside from the mouse issues when doing the 30hz trick I noticed if my frames drop to even 25 the lag and long frames becomes a stutter fest slide show.  The 30hz trick to me seems to break down in demanding scenarios, so seeking an alternative was not all about the mouse.

What I did:

Riva Tuner Statistics Server (RTSS) - This program has come along way and in April 2019 I think people should try it out.  Reading on other gaming boards people have sworn by it as the gold standard for lag-free FPS limiter.  BlurBusters has even run high-speed cameras on the screen and proven it has the lowest lag of any FPS limiter including in-game limiters.  Granted they didn't test it with P3D but I found some overwhelming evidence that this is the best current option and it's constantly improving.  Download and install.

Next find your exact refresh rate to the .001 decimal using either of these two links:  https://www.testufo.com/refreshrate or https://www.vsynctester.com/

My monitor is 59.996.  Divide this number by 2 so in my case (59.996/2) = 29.998.  First, try the 29.998 (or your number divided by 2) but it's recommended to offset it by -.001 to -.003.  I settled at 29.996.

When you open RTSS you can't set the FPS limiter by 1,000th so you have to do it in the CFG File located at C:\Program Files (x86)\RivaTuner Statistics Server\Profiles - Find the Global file and open it with notepad or notepad++. 

Make sure RTSS is closed.  Find these two entries and change them to your framerate and the denominator to 1000:

[Framerate]

Limit=29996

LimitDenominator=1000

Now when you open RTSS you should see 29.996.  You don't need to do anything else with RTSS except make sure it's running when P3D is running.

Nvidia Control Panel - It's recommended that you turn on FAST sync.  I know there is a plethora of information and plenty of debate about this setting.  This was recommended by most of the posts I have read.  Does it work in borderless window fullscreen?  I don't know, I turned it on to get the results I did.  I don't think there is any accurate information on FAST sync in these boards and I am not going to pretend mine is correct, but with it on placebo effect or not, it was suggested and helps as far as I can tell.

P3D Settings - No Vsync, No  TB, however, I highly recommend locking your FPS at 60.  FFTF does not work if you have unlimited set.  It's ignored.  Rob Ainscough has been pretty adamant that this is what P3D has told him.  I have tested an FFTF of .90 on unlimited and the SIM shows no effect on FPS but if you set it to 60 or below your FPS will crash at FFTF .90.  My testing shows Rob is 100% correct that FFTF is ignored unless the FPS is locked at 60 or below.  I use dynamic FFTF from .01 to .19 on an AGL.  Works well, helps with autogen but it's not important to the RTSS/Fast Sync settings.

In the end with RTSS set at exactly 1/2 refresh rate for FPS and Nvidia Fast Sync on I got a much, much better experience in P3D.  It was smooth, my monitor was at 60hz and my mouse is silk across the screen.  When things drop to 25, 26 FPS I didn't even notice!  I did a test scenario at KAPA in dense overcast weather with some very heavy settings so I knew I would fluctuate from 24 FPS to 30 FPS.  Here are the FRAPS frame time results:

https://ibb.co/c1XjzbW - 30 HZ Vsync, TB - Typical long frames when I can't hold a perfect 30 FPS.  All over the place, but I will say, it seemed okay.  Choppy at times for sure, smooth at others.  What I usually get in P3D when things aren't wide open Iowa fields.

https://ibb.co/t2svrTg - RTSS - Fast Sync - Huge difference.  Not perfect but again this was a scenario where I wasn't going to hold 30, but nowhere near the mess that I got at 30 HZ. It felt much smoother and the graph doesn't lie.

Hope some of you are able to try this out.

 

 

 

Edited by TravelRunner404
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There is a second way with RTSS... Use the Scanline X/2 option.

Works nicely for me, and I leave the fps setting in P3D on unlimited, vsync off.

Try it.. :wink:

 

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I'm not a fan of limiting my platform in anyway - to do so is old school IMO.  It is possible that the build has a limitation that needs to be accounted for but these can usually be fixed with copious amounts of $$

Cheers
bs 

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I have tried scanline sync x/2 and that is also gave me good results on frame time but it didn’t lock my FPS at 30 for some reason. I have also heard it can be hard on the GPU and you need head room but take that with a grain of salt bc I didn’t see anything in my testing to suggest that.

scanline sync x/2 tested well I think it’s a viable option.  

I did feel my original worked the best for me but could be some placebo going on compared to SSx/2. 

Also great read with the article.

Some good base evidence that RRTS is offering some evidence based alternatives to the 30/30 method.

I have done a few more tests and the frame times are still much more consistent with RRTS then 30hz. Will keep exploring and hope some 30/30 regulars give it a shot. 

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Ok i have 7.1.0 as 7.2.2 wont install. And i don't see this scanline option. Is it hidden somewhere?

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Scanline wasn't available until Sep/Oct 2018.  Try 7.2.1 but I believe 7.2.2 fixed a windows 10 signature issue and would be blocked by win10 pending your version.

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19 minutes ago, Riah069 said:

And i don't see this scanline option

Now I see what you are saying.  Single click on Scanline Sync and it will cycle through the 3 options. There is x2 and x/2.

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Ok got it to install the new version 🙂 And i see scanline now. So i just set it to x/2 what about the box to the right that goes from 0-huge number

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The box to the right is for screen tearing so you should leave it at 0.  Otherwise yes, just set it to x/2 and you are good for that option.

I would highly recommend trying the original method I posted and comparing the two.  I do think it makes a difference capping your framerate at exactly have the refresh rate as described.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TravelRunner404 said:

The box to the right is for screen tearing so you should leave it at 0.  Otherwise yes, just set it to x/2 and you are good for that option.

 

No , no.. the box on the right needs to be set to a non-zero value for this to work :wink:

Edited by Bert Pieke

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2 hours ago, Riah069 said:

Ok got it to install the new version 🙂 And i see scanline now. So i just set it to x/2 what about the box to the right that goes from 0-huge number

Try -1 as a starting point.. it is the vertical position of the scan line.

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5 hours ago, bean_sprout said:

I'm not a fan of limiting my platform in anyway - to do so is old school IMO.  It is possible that the build has a limitation that needs to be accounted for but these can usually be fixed with copious amounts of $$

Cheers
bs 

Not a terribly useful post IMHO b.s. P3D runs most efficiently when running FPS unlimited and Vsync on. To suggest the solution is to through money at it isn't terribly helpful.

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In theory Scanline Sync and a Frame limiter at 30 should be identical at 30fps. The difference is when frame drops occur.

Dropping under 30fps with Frame Limiter = Stutters

Dropping under 30fps with Scanline Sync = Tearing

That's how it works with a fullscreen program but P3D isn't fullscreen and therefore tearing isn't possible so I believe in practice both options should be identical?

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Ok so i have tried all the tips etc. And it comes down to the issue that has plagued me for ages ever since the "Buttery Smooth" discussion has arisen. Essentially what every i do that takes my FPS locked at 30 FPS or 30hz etc etc induces stutters. If i set to unlimited i get a VERY smooth sim. If i cap the sim at 30 there is noticeable stutters in VC and outside.

Sorry to attempt at hijacking thread OP no offence. I have 3 monitors and all produce the same result. So i am at a lose lol.

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9 minutes ago, Riah069 said:

Ok so i have tried all the tips etc. And it comes down to the issue that has plagued me for ages ever since the "Buttery Smooth" discussion has arisen. Essentially what every i do that takes my FPS locked at 30 FPS or 30hz etc etc induces stutters. If i set to unlimited i get a VERY smooth sim. If i cap the sim at 30 there is noticeable stutters in VC and outside.

Sorry to attempt at hijacking thread OP no offence. I have 3 monitors and all produce the same result. So i am at a lose lol.

From your signature it looks like you have a Gsync monitor, so unlimited is what you want, no need to lock hz or fps.

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Posted (edited)

If there is anything that this discussion shows, it is that there is no single best solution for every user and every system..

I personally started out with an fps lock, via NVI.. and currently use a scanline lock via RTSS.. not to mention trying FFTF Dynamic for good measure..

You have to be prepared to try some different options if you are not totally satisfied with your current situation.  If, on the other hand you are satisfied with your current system, do not spend time here, but go and fly!  :smile:

Edited by Bert Pieke

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20 minutes ago, Riah069 said:

Essentially what every i do that takes my FPS locked at 30 FPS or 30hz etc etc induces stutters.

Not all internal frame rate limiters are created equal. Simply bc it’s in game does not mean it’s the best. The article linked by itsjase clearly shows that that particular game has a sub par frame limiter. Rob A has demonstrated in his videos that the internal frame rate limiters for P3D causes issues with smoothness. The P3D staff has also stated you should use a number that’s 10% higher than the FPS you want. So in your case 33 is better than 30 according to LM. I personally use it at 60 bc that’s the point where the FFTF is used and Rob has shown in videos on his YouTube channel that without limiting FPS you can eventually lose autogen  

30Hz, Vsync, TB is an option but it’s choppy and if performance drops below it’s doomed. However, in fairness 20 FPS is 20 FPS it’s not going to look like 60 FPS.

Most of us live in a world of 22 FPS to 90 FPS with P3D so of course no solution is perfect. 

Try the initial suggestion I made and compare it to your 30hz option. It’s important to understand, I am saying let’s compare the RTSS/Fast Sync to a 30hz/30fps and not compare it to locked 60 FPS smoothness.  They both lose. 

As for scanline sync x/2, Bert says it works for him. I find it better than 30/30 but not as good as my original suggestion. Additionally, most of the information on SS says that it needs a lot of GPU head room to work at its best and it’s more for fixing screen tearing without losing latency i.e. high frame rate shooters. However, I think people should test it and see bc it does seem to lock you at half refresh rate even in borderless windowed full screen 

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@TravelRunner404 excellent thread, thank you so much for this. I used to lock the screen refresh rate at 30Hz, but the mouse stutter was so annoying I had to stop using it. I tried now your solution and it seems to give me very smooth play and panning around compared to unlimited frames. The difference is clear in heavy scenarios. 

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Thanks for this, very useful thread.

Any chance you could outline what changes need to be made when using scanline instead of fast sync?

I'm not quite clear on what needs to change in the Nvidia CP and in RTSS vs the fast option. I get issues with the FSL using fast as my screen randomly turns black and becomes unresponsive so would like to try the other option and see if that works. Thanks!!

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Posted (edited)

I have had pretty good success just setting the frame rate in RTSS to exactly half refresh rate and turning on the Vsync/TB in P3D.  I don’t notice any difference from that and fast sync. I have no proof test though. 

There is just a crazy amount of information when it comes to vsync out there. Here is what I have read but there is no definitive source:

nvidia fast sync - this is just a type of vsync with triple buffer. That’s all. Don’t know if it works in windowless border mode but a lot of people say it’s pointless bc WBM actually already does this!

Windowless border mode - people use this bc as stated above, it does an automatic Windows integrated vsync and triple buffer.

Vsync/triple buffer P3d - another option but reading the last two descriptions if you have fast sync on already you could be doing triple vsync and ninefold buffer. Although I don’t think that’s how it works; you get my confusion. 

Anyway, I would simply try setting the frame rate exactly half and turn on the P3d vsync. 

Edited by TravelRunner404
Typos.

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4 hours ago, Speedbird 217 said:

Thanks for this, very useful thread.

Any chance you could outline what changes need to be made when using scanline instead of fast sync?

I'm not quite clear on what needs to change in the Nvidia CP and in RTSS vs the fast option. I get issues with the FSL using fast as my screen randomly turns black and becomes unresponsive so would like to try the other option and see if that works. Thanks!!

As for the scanline option...

- In P3D set fps to unlimited and vsync to off

- in RTSS, create a profile for prepar3d.exe and select scanline X/2 with a non-zero value (start with -1)

- Run RTSS along with P3D and check the fps counter in P3D to verify operation

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Bert Pieke said:

As for the scanline option...

- In P3D set fps to unlimited and vsync to off

- in RTSS, create a profile for prepar3d.exe and select scanline X/2 with a non-zero value (start with -1)

- Run RTSS along with P3D and check the fps counter in P3D to verify operation

why -1? I have read somewhere that it should be the same as the refresh rate. but I really want to know if there is a reason.

I tried the above steps yesterday and I added the FAST option in Nvidia control panel and start suffering some black screen and long pauses arriving at OTHH also using FSLabs A320, I have never had these issues before.

Edited by ttbq1

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ttbq1 said:

why -1? I have read somewhere that it should be the same as the refresh rate. but I really want to know if there is a reason.

I tried the above steps yesterday and I added the FAST option in Nvidia control panel and start suffering some black screen and long pauses arriving at OTHH also using FSLabs A320, I have never had these issues before.

What you have read is incorrect... the value indicates the vertical scan line position (as you can tell by mousing over the value..)

Use whatever non-zero value you like...  -1 to 1080, your choice.. :wink:

I do not use the FAST option.. so cannot comment

Edited by Bert Pieke

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Thanks guys! I’ll try scanline and using the P3D Vsync options tonight and see what works best.

Glad to read I’m not alone in having issues with fast sync and the FSL, seems they’re not compatible.

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