7 hours ago, france89 said:

But anyway, i enjoy flight simulators the way elitist simmers want them, and yet i also enjoy videogames. Why? Because both can be fun.

The "elitist simmers" used to refer to themselves as Serious Simmers.  I always thought that was because they never smiled, or had reason to, and they thought that else should ever smile while flight simming.  See my signature.  Not much laughter silvering those wings.

Sorry, but you're not allowed to have fun in a flight sim.  Any new flight sim that has activities designed to appeal to newcomers is anathema.  

"It's not a game, it's a SIMULATOR!"  God forbid anyone might think they were playing a video game.  The very existence of gaming elements threatens their self image.

Hook

 

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by LHookins

4 minutes ago, LHookins said:

The "elitist simmers" used to refer to themselves as Serious Simmers.  I always thought that was because they never smiled, or had reason to, and they thought that else should ever smile while flight simming.  See my signature.  Not much laughter silvering those wings.

Sorry, but you're not allowed to have fun in a flight sim.  Any new flight sim that has activities designed to appeal to newcomers is anathema.  

"It's not a game, it's a SIMULATOR!"  God forbid anyone might think they were playing a video game.  The very existence of gaming elements threatens their self image.

I think that's a false dichotomy. It's possible to want capital S Serious Simulation in a flight sim while also having fun with it. I've been known to fly illegal low-level maneuvers through downtown Seattle once in a while. Buzzing the tower at an airport never gets old, although when flying in FSEconomy (a "game," by the way), I usually don't like wasting fuel that I'm paying for.

But if MS wants to sell me something called "Microsoft Flight Simulator" then yeah, I want them to take it seriously. They can add all the newbie or "casual" features they want, but there had better be some Capital S "Serious Simmer" stuff in there at the heart of the thing.

As a pilot by trade, I find myself a bit curious here. 

What are features that people consider “serious sim” features?

2 minutes ago, irrics said:

As a pilot by trade, I find myself a bit curious here. 

What are features that people consider “serious sim” features?

The PMDG 737 NGX.  

2 minutes ago, LHookins said:

The PMDG 737 NGX.  

Forgive me as I don’t use PMDG products. 

What is “serious” about it?

Just that it replicates every single switch and button and system?

(I presume it does?)

 

I am just trying to understand what people are trying to “simulate” precisely and sort of what the goal is, etc. 

 

“Simulation” is a term that covers a lot of ground and is fairly subjective. 

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by irrics

As an example, my only real goals with Simming are to 

1.  Have fun

2.  Do things and go places that might not be practical in reality

3.  Simulate real world navigational and weather scenarios both for recurrent training and challenge. 

 

The reason I’ve never been concerned with full system replication is mainly just how tedious and unlike real life it is to be poking around with a mouse and zooming in and out, etc.  It’s just nothing like reality and is sort of it’s own “thing” honestly. 

 

Now put me in a full motion sim and that’s a different deal and I’m all in. 

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by irrics

8 hours ago, france89 said:

You are wrong and basing it on your personal view.

Here is mine, opposite to yours. I play videogames, i always played them. In a way this gave me even an insight about what modern game engines are capable of compared to the usual running excuse you hear around here and other places regarding the fact that our sims run the whole earth in 3d, apparently without considering the fact that not the whole earth is drawn on screen at the same time.

But anyway, i enjoy flight simulators the way elitist simmers want them, and yet i also enjoy videogames. Why? Because both can be fun. Liking one thing doesn't mean you cannot like the other one, it's a very elistist and narrow minded way of looking at things, especially since those are two world which are not in conflict with each other.
You are also stereotyping Xbox players, or games to this extent, as someone who just want to go pew pew and blow things up.

Besides, the whole point is that XBox players can enjoy a flight game instead of having to buy a whole PC, just like PC people can use videogames without having to buy an XBox. 

Gamers don't give a quack about simmers. it's only this narrow minded elististic mindset that simmers have who seems to have a superiority complex based on a videogame they play on their pc because they made different life decisions compared to real plane pilots (for different reasons).

You are wrong and basing it on your personal view. 

This is what makes me more correct:

Flying is a real life thing. Aviation is much more important in this world than gaming is. Take away aviation and the world will essentially stop including the gaming/computing industry. But take away gaming and its more an inconvenience by comparison. Besides that, a flight simulator saves money, time, and lives. Much more superior, much more important, than playing games on Xbox.

There are already plenty of flying games for the home. We are still waiting for a realistic (much closer to real life) flight simulator, MSFS 1 through 10 brought us closer and closer. P3D and XP 11 bring us closer and closer. Will we now get the next rendition to make it more of a game, or more of a simulator? - can it be both? Maybe, but realism cannot be sacrificed for the sake of beginners and gamers, or it will fail. 

_______________________________________________________

A question somebody asked was, how are P3D/ESP 3rd party developers going to develop for Xbox? Will it be the exact same coding? Even if its possible will they bother? 

10 minutes ago, irrics said:

Forgive me as I don’t use PMDG products. 

What is “serious” about it?

You'll have to put that question to the person who posted just above me.

 

5 minutes ago, LHookins said:

You'll have to put that question to the person who posted just above me.

 

Forget I asked. 

That guy is way too serious about MSFS and the implications.

It is a game. It can be extended to do more and used for simulating things, but let’s stop short of saying it’s “critical” or “superior” or “saving lives”.

Even “games” can be used in ways to help save lives, but its real primary purpose is for users to have fun. 

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by irrics

2 minutes ago, irrics said:

As a pilot by trade, I find myself a bit curious here. 

What are features that people consider “serious sim” features?

Everyone will have their own definition, but here's a few things I'd look for, in no particular order:

---------------------------
Realistic entry and recovery from a stall
Spins and spin recovery
Cross-control side slip
Realistic turbulence, including subtle "buoyancy in the air" effects so it doesn't feel like I'm always flying on rails
Ground effect in the flare when landing (fixed wing)
Navigation with FMS and a few popular GPS models, including SIDs and STARs
Basic software-generated ATC
AI aircraft behaving realistically in the air and on the ground
Non-flat runways
Believable night lighting
Believable weather modeling including CB's (which nobody does well, yet)
In-flight icing
Runway surface effects depending on dry, wet, or icy conditions
User-selected failure modes
Vortex Ring State (helicopters)
Mast Bump (helicopters)
Ground cushion effect (helicopters)
Retreating blade stall (helicopters)
Support for a wide range of flight control hardware, with easy programming of custom assignments
---------------------------

And probably some more that I'm forgetting. I actually don't care that much about programmed ATC or AI aircraft because I mostly fly bush planes and helicopters in more remote areas, and I never fly tubeliners, but I know it's a big deal for many enthusiasts. My current main platform XP11 covers almost all of the list, excluding weather, ATC, and (arguably) realistic stalls and spins in some aircraft models. 

Some of that list could be introduced later as an upgrade in MSFS, like a wider range of GPS, and if there's no helicopter in the initial release, they don't have to worry about that stuff. The rest is something it will inevitably be compared to, when it's being done (or at least attempted) by other current flight sim platforms.

So mainly great flight models (summing up most of that list)

I agree. 

That said, I put it a touch lower than some might simply because I don’t use a real cockpit/control setup that fully emulates a real world body position with controls and interactions happening as in real life. 

 

What about visuals besides what you mentioned?

If you fly bush, I’m assuming you’d like that to always be a very high priority too yeah?

 

To me visuals are so important and add so much fun, especially getting the right “picture” on approach/landing (IFR and VFR)

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by irrics

Don't forget the PMDG 777 - people are VERY serious about that one too. 

Me: I like looping the loop in it mostly after a beer or two but occassionally try to stick to the SOP 😉

Especially when flying for my VA - who are very serious and would frown upon such manoeuvres with pax onboard.

Edited June 16, 20196 yr by Guest

On 6/14/2019 at 10:58 PM, irrics said:

Some people seem so incredibly cynical, negative and just -- depressing.

Man alive..  C'mon guys.  This is GOOD NEWS!!

I guess I'm one of the 'downers' and depressing, negative, cynical (and all the other adjectives, you throw out, to label me as someone who's just annoying and won't believe everything) people in here... 

It's just... I've heard the same song SO many times from companies, who are about to announce or launch a simulator (or whatever they call it). 

Microsoft had the same melody when they announced Microsoft Flight (and we all know how that turned out).

Dovetail Games had the same tune, when they announced and developed Flight Sim World... 

I really really hope, that Microsoft have 'learned' from their 'mistakes' (although, I'm not so sure, that Microsoft see them as such, to be honest). I am excited about this announcement - but I keep a skeptical distance to it, simply because I see some 'warning signs' in the way they announce it, and what their intentions seem to be. The 'XBOX'/Gamer aspect of this, is a little bit concerning... To be honest, I'm not so sure we (us here - the hardcore simmers in here) are the main target demographic. The gamer aspect is (at least to me) concerning - but also foreseeable, since I guess that's where the big revenue is.

That being said, I have no clue as to why people in here are being so hostile about this?! The minute you disagree or you say something the majority in here don't think is appropriate - when you try to maintain some kind of realistic view of the situation, people are grabbing their pitchforks and torches and are driving up some a lynch-atmosphere.

It is - to quote a certain President - just 'sad'... 

Sometimes I like an in-depth study sim.  Sometimes I prefer a more casual experience.  I do not fly jet airliners.  I prefer radial engines and steam gauges.

I plan my flights on skyvector.com and avoid use of the GPS and other in-game maps.  I'll fly either dead reckoning and pilotage, or I'll use VOR and NDB.  Sometimes there are few radio navaids and it's all dead reckoning between them, often with no knowledge of winds aloft.  I "fly" in eras before SIDS and STARS, and usually away from ATC although I'll use it occasionally.  I do not fly IFR unless the real world weather closes in around me.

I almost never use the autopilot, and have used time compression on a flight exactly once since 2006.  If a flight is 10 hours flying VOR to VOR, I hand fly it, manually tuning the radios.  This was in the Manfred Jahn C-47/DC-3 from Boeing Field in Washington to Mena Arkansas, duplicating a Buffalo Airways flight in a different aircraft.  If the plane is in the air, I'm at the controls.  My flights are navigation exercises.

Serious Simming means you program the FMC, take off, put the plane on autopilot, set the sim to pause at top of descent, then go to dinner and a movie.  It might even mean doing this in a $75,000 home cockpit.

Is how I fly any more or less serious?  Just because I can't fly past the Golden Gate bridge without flying underneath it doesn't mean I don't do serious flying.  But that kind of thing causes Serious Simmers to break out in hives.

Frooglesim made a first look video of a PMDG plane.  It was quite amusing.  The reaction from the Serious Simmers made you think he was spitting on the flag.

You could do serious flying in Microsoft Flight, but you couldn't do it in the PMDG 737 NGX, so Flight was "nothing but an arcade game." 

Hook