Help Me Choose a High-End Yoke (and Maybe Rudder Pedals)

[regis9 4,033]

Hi everyone, I find myself in the fortunate situation to have some disposable funds coming to me that I'm going to use to upgrade my flightsim hardware. I plan to buy a nice yoke and possibly a new set of rudder pedals.  I also plan to buy a proper throttle quadrant and have 99% settled on the VirtualFly TQ6 as I haven't found anything to sway me from that.

I sim in P3D primarily but also dabble in X-Plane and DCS.

I'm currently using a Warthog HOTAS/Throttle and MFG Crosswind pedals.  I would continue to use the Warthog HOTAS for DCS, and for aircraft in P3D X-Plane that use a stick rather than Yoke (ie FSLabs Airbus).  I primarily fly airliners.  I do fly some GA, and would likely fly more GA with the right hardware, but airliners are definitely where I spend most of my time.  

For a yoke, I'm down to either the VirtualFly Yoko+ or the Brunner CLS-E NG.  There are within 200 euros of each other so the price difference is not a deciding factor for me.  I've been scouring this forum and the internet for anything I can find on both and my main conclusion is that people who buy either are very happy with them, which means I really can't go wrong - I just need to figure out which is right for me.

The biggest benefit trade off between the two seems to be the length of the elevator throw length which is quite a bit longer on the Yoko+ vs the fact that the CLS-E NG has force feedback.  What I'm trying to wrap my head around is which is more valuable in a primarily airliner environment?  I'm leaning toward the CLS-E NG but I'm really not sure.  I've read a few opinions that due to limitations in how P3D processes force feedback (or doesn't), the FFB on the Brunner isn't as good as one might expect.  I've also read several opinions saying the Brunner FFB is amazing.  I've also read an opinion on the A2A forums that although it doesn't have FFB, the bungee tension on the Yoko does a very good job of simulating the increasing force needed to get to full deflection.  With either I'd have to get used to having fewer buttons at my disposal than with the Warthog stick.

Another area of thought for me is compatibility, both in terms of add-on aircraft and simulators.  As a standard USB Yoke, the Yoko+ would work as expected with any addon aircraft, whereas the Brunner requires profiles for different aircraft.  I understand that there are some profiles available and even without custom made profiles you still get most of the FFB effects so even if not everything works with every aircraft, the basic FFB functionality should be there. 

Simulator compatibility is on my mind, not right now neccessarily but into the future and the unknown that FS2020 brings to our world.  Again, as a standard USB Yoke I expect the Yoko would continue to work no problems, my bigger question mark is the Brunner since it requires external software and is generally more complicated.  I'm sure no one can answer the question and I imagine Brunner would work to support FS2020 but it remains a minor concern in my mind.

Mounting - I use my computer desk for more than just flight simming so I wouldn't be hard mounting my yoke.  The Yoko comes with a clamp and the Brunner doesn't, I would have to go and find clamps that would work.  Not a major issue, but something to consider.

Longevity - I have no doubt that both are high quality and will provide years of simming pleasure.  But I can't help that think the Yoko is a safer bet for a longer lifespan given it has hall sensors and doesn't have the complexity of a FFB system?

In terms of pedals, I'm generally happy with my MFG Crosswinds, my only real issue is that I have a hard time braking with equal force on both pedals...I think the braking axis is a little bit short compared to the real world?  Part of my is also interested in something that is closer to a real world layout/appearance/function.  Similar to my Yoke research, the two that seem to rise to the top are the VirtualFly Ruddo pedals and then sticking with the Brunner ecosystem, the CLS-E Rudder pedals.  Now, unlike the yoke, there is a massive difference in price between these two, and I would really have to consider how much better the FFB rudder pedals are than the Ruddo pedals that use load cells (which I feel would still be a great step up from the Crosswind pedals but I would love to hear from anyone who has done that upgrade). 

Similar to the Brunner yoke, I would have to figure out mounting for the FFB pedals.  I currently have a sheet of plywood with a wooden stop on it that my rudder pedals sit up against and that keeps them pretty steady.  I'm assuming that would work with the Ruddo pedals, but with FFB pedals I would need something more secure.  Again, hard mounting them is not an option as I need to be able to swap them out for sim racing pedals. 

Rudder pedals are interesting, in one sense they seem like a less important area to spend funds on, but on the other hand in an airliner I would probably use them more than the actual yoke given how much of the manual input is taxiing etc.

Thanks for reading my brain dump, I'd love to hear any thoughts or advice, particularly from people who own any of these products.

Dave

 

 

[Patco Lch 1,475]

Hello Dave,

I don't know anything about high end products so I can't help you there but I just wanted to throw in and say my CH yoke and quadrant have served me well for many years. Sorry I couldn't offer better help.

Edited August 20, 2019 by PATCO LCH
They would leave you with plenty of funds to use elsewhere.

[Vendelbo 4]

Perhaps: Honeycomb - Alpha Flight Controls, guess that rudder pedals will come

A pre-order sale at Aerosoft https://www.aerosoft.com/en/hardware/flight-simulation/yokes/2567/honeycomb-alpha-flight-controls?c=1152

/Peter

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Vendelbo

[hs118 721]

52 minutes ago, regis9 said:

In terms of pedals, I'm generally happy with my MFG Crosswinds, my only real issue is that I have a hard time braking with equal force on both pedals...I think the braking axis is a little bit short compared to the real world?  Part of my is also interested in something that is closer to a real world layout/appearance/function.  Similar to my Yoke research, the two that seem to rise to the top are the VirtualFly Ruddo pedals and then sticking with the Brunner ecosystem, the CLS-E Rudder pedals.  Now, unlike the yoke, there is a massive difference in price between these two, and I would really have to consider how much better the FFB rudder pedals are than the Ruddo pedals that use load cells (which I feel would still be a great step up from the Crosswind pedals but I would love to hear from anyone who has done that upgrade). 

Similar to the Brunner yoke, I would have to figure out mounting for the FFB pedals.  I currently have a sheet of plywood with a wooden stop on it that my rudder pedals sit up against and that keeps them pretty steady.  I'm assuming that would work with the Ruddo pedals, but with FFB pedals I would need something more secure.  Again, hard mounting them is not an option as I need to be able to swap them out for sim racing pedals. 

Rudder pedals are interesting, in one sense they seem like a less important area to spend funds on, but on the other hand in an airliner I would probably use them more than the actual yoke given how much of the manual input is taxiing etc.

Thanks for reading my brain dump, I'd love to hear any thoughts or advice, particularly from people who own any of these products.

Dave

I recently had the opportunity (read:free cash) to upgrade my rudder pedals. The two finalists for me were the MFG and TPR systems.  

The precision mechanics of the MFG were a big attraction for me. But, the full foot pedals and the overall motion did not correspond to any of the real world aircraft that I have traveled in. The TPR, overall, seemed to be a better simulation of current real world aircraft. 

There is a good review of TPR on youtube by Robert Sogomonian. He even addresses the movement of the whole hardware.

I really like the TPR system.

Good luck in your search.

[regis9 4,033]

Thanks I'll take a gander at the TPR system as well.  The MFG's are definitely very mechanically impressive but yes the motion is off from the RW.

[FreeBird(Josh) 315]

I just got some Ruddos and can never go back too my old crosswinds there that big of difference. If your looking for the closet thing to the real ones this is it unless want force feedback. The braking uses pressure cells so it feels right and also the peddles themselves move and feel like the real thing. there pricey but you cant go wrong with VF controllers, I have all of them. I just started flying airliners and they work like a charm. I heard the TPR's are good but not as good as the Ruddos . If you want FFB then go with the Brunner controllers but you will spend twice as much than with the VF stuff and for me FFB wasn't that important. I spent money on 2 Buttkikers for all the vibrations and such which really ads to the immersion.  If you need help in mounting ideas let me know.  Josh

Rudder pedals are interesting, in one sense they seem like a less important area to spend funds on, but on the other hand in an airliner I would probably use them more than the actual yoke given how much of the manual input is taxiing etc.   I thought the same thing but I was wrong they are important.

Edited August 20, 2019 by FreeBird(Josh)

[lennie 48]

Hi Dave

I too have the MFG Crosswind pedals, and notice the same problem on braking. There might be a solution to this but i haven't had a chance to check it out.

You can't go wrong with Brunner yoke. I have had mine for about a year. its fantastic for GA hand flying and when combined with ASN in windy weather can be quite a challenge. It doesn't do much for you when you engage the A/P.

[regis9 4,033]

Thanks for the responses so far!

Edited August 21, 2019 by regis9

[Camsdad13 65]

I bought the TPR a few weeks ago. I also have them screwed down to wood stopping at the back of my desk. The TPR doesn't move. Great pedals. Dell had them at $499 with free two day delivery.

[tutmeister 712]

Tpr are great although I did have to screw mine down. They have a more GA style which I like but I wish the brakes were a bit harder or ideally load cell.

Regarding the yoke...if you want affordable non force feedback with the most realistic travel and great feel then i might have something to suggest to you in a month or so 😉

Chris

[regis9 4,033]

I’m getting ready to pull the trigger, pretty much settled on the Brunner yoke and as mentioned previously the TQ6...last internal debate I’m having is whether to go with the Brunner pedals or the Ruddo.

If anyone has any last minute words of wisdom/experience I’m all ears 😀

[MarkDH 234]

5 hours ago, regis9 said:

If anyone has any last minute words of wisdom/experience I’m all ears 😀

I would ask yourself why you are looking at force-feedback because the price is potentially very high. I don't just mean the purchase cost, although if you are comparing like with like you will need the more expensive Brunner. Consider that the Brunner is a fiendishiy complex machine that relies on many things working (and going on working) even to function as an expensive simulation of what a sprung yoke does naturally. And then it relies on some elaborate coordinated tap-dance of software components in order to make any meanignful contribution to realism inside of your chosen simulator. Even if it works well, it will likely cause you heartache from time to time. A Yoko, on the other hand, will just work, without any drivers. It probably won't break down and if it ever does break down you will stand a good chance of being able to fix it yourself.

But all that aside, back to what you think FFB will add - especially if you're flying airliners. I have an idea that what gets labelled realism is actually little more than novelty.I would wonder if six months on you will really see any benefit, unless perhaps you are flying aerobatics or bush planes in weather, AND then assuming the Brunner software actually adds any reaslism to those things rather than just clever special effects. Yes, you will have 'proper' elevator trim but I don't think that's enough on its own to sell FFB.

And here's a final thought. If you buy the Brunner it seems ot me there is great potential for disappointment, for any of the reasons mentioned above. I would say it is not possible to be disappointed by the Yoko. You already know exactly what it is, and in contrast to the cheaper yokes of its kind it is flawless and a joy to use.

[FreeBird(Josh) 315]

18 minutes ago, MarkDH said:

I would ask yourself why you are looking at force-feedback because the price is potentially very high. I don't just mean the purchase cost, although if you are comparing like with like you will need the more expensive Brunner. Consider that the Brunner is a fiendishiy complex machine that relies on many things working (and going on working) even to function as an expensive simulation of what a sprung yoke does naturally. And then it relies on some elaborate coordinated tap-dance of software components in order to make any meanignful contribution to realism inside of your chosen simulator. Even if it works well, it will likely cause you heartache from time to time. A Yoko, on the other hand, will just work, without any drivers. It probably won't break down and if it ever does break down you will stand a good chance of being able to fix it yourself.

But all that aside, back to what you think FFB will add - especially if you're flying airliners. I have an idea that what gets labelled realism is actually little more than novelty.I would wonder if six months on you will really see any benefit, unless perhaps you are flying aerobatics or bush planes in weather, AND then assuming the Brunner software actually adds any reaslism to those things rather than just clever special effects. Yes, you will have 'proper' elevator trim but I don't think that's enough on its own to sell FFB.

And here's a final thought. If you buy the Brunner it seems ot me there is great potential for disappointment, for any of the reasons mentioned above. I would say it is not possible to be disappointed by the Yoko. You already know exactly what it is, and in contrast to the cheaper yokes of its kind it is flawless and a joy to use.

+ one     I added 2 buttkickers for 300 + opus software and that really up the immersion for me. FFB to me is overkill. You cant go wrong with VF hardware. I got the whole trilogy.   Josh

Edited August 22, 2019 by FreeBird(Josh)

[Gordon Hutchison 76]

FFB is not the be all and end all - I was one of the "lucky" buyers who received their Iris Dynamics Yoke back in 2014, and I only kept it for about 3 months before selling it on.
Albeit it was a prototype design at the time, I was severly underwhelmed by what a FFB brough to any "realism".

I kid you not, the most impressive thing about the yoke, and the only feature I genuinly miss is watching the yoke follow the autopilot by itself.

Get a Yoko/PFC/Fulcrum..etc etc and spend the savings on other hardware/avionics panels.

[MarkJHarris 128]

OK, here's my take. bear in mind I'm a real world 737 pilot too. The Brunner CLS-E is by far the best Rolls-Royce option for a yoke, and I'm saving up for one. 

It's not just the force feedback, but also the fact it is really a Control Loading yoke. Compared to ANY other it works in a different way.

Fly your 737/747 whatever, and trim and feel the force like the real aircraft, but then, here's the rub. put your autopilot on. rest your hands lightly on the yoke and fell it move. The yoke moves as on the real aircraft! No other yoke does this. 

This feedback, is just so much more immersive than  you can get any other way.

Now the pedals. Nothing like as important. A decent smooth set of pedals is fine, but, again, remember the bulk of the world's 737s don't have rudder servos either. 

However, do you like putting faults in. Simulating OEI flying? If you do, then the Brunner pedals are for you too. With rudder trim input, they move, and you can feel the force reduce as you trim it out. VERY realistic. 

It's crazy money, but you get what you pay for. Absolutely you do.