7 hours ago, Sethos said:

But doesn't the planes themselves also need to be optimized / changed for the experimental flight model, before they fully represent what it's trying to convey? Was under the impression you couldn't just slap on the beta and experimental with any old plane, expecting a perfect, realistic result.

That is correct.

Often planes were "tuned" to behave realistically, even with an imperfect flightmodel. And every change - even towards perfection - will make these planes fly "worse"...

I think we need to keep in mind that some of the flight-model changes are really minute, though. I think we are going to see an effect where people just THINK that something changed, but it really didn´t. 

It´s a bit like when people report that their framerates change drastically with every new beta - even though nothing was changed that could affect that.

Without a scientific test regime with controlled test to the very same parameters it will be hard to really get anything better than a "general feeling" - which will be very subjective.

Austin has gotten pretty good at filtering out outlier personal opinions. With every change made he gets messages from users that both "hate" and "love" the new change. So he needs to wait for a general consensus to form, have it backed up by real pilots and (if available) flight-test data before he is willing to change something. This takes a bit of time (sometimes a long time), but it beats swinging back and forth, I think.

Cheers, Jan

 

8 hours ago, Janov said:

That is correct.

Often planes were "tuned" to behave realistically, even with an imperfect flightmodel. And every change - even towards perfection - will make these planes fly "worse"...

I think we need to keep in mind that some of the flight-model changes are really minute, though. I think we are going to see an effect where people just THINK that something changed, but it really didn´t. 

It´s a bit like when people report that their framerates change drastically with every new beta - even though nothing was changed that could affect that.

Without a scientific test regime with controlled test to the very same parameters it will be hard to really get anything better than a "general feeling" - which will be very subjective.

Austin has gotten pretty good at filtering out outlier personal opinions. With every change made he gets messages from users that both "hate" and "love" the new change. So he needs to wait for a general consensus to form, have it backed up by real pilots and (if available) flight-test data before he is willing to change something. This takes a bit of time (sometimes a long time), but it beats swinging back and forth, I think.

Cheers, Jan

 

Yea, I think your statement is really true.  In the main its really a good thing that Austin is so devoted to the topic of " as real as it gets "  regarding the correct flight envelopes and physics.

And X-Plane is very ease in terms of flexibility:  If a user has found his personal sweet-spot with the flight dynamics over a certain version (like me with version 11.32), you can easily roll back to the previous one.

Assumed, the serious chair-pilot has done his X-Plane backups properly and before an update - which should be common sense among the X-Plane " evangelists ".

All the best.

Edited September 20, 20196 yr by KBUR
wrong spelling

20 hours ago, KBUR said:

I went through various helicopters (my preferred machine in X-Plane) and some GA light aircrafts.  To note: I'm always simulating without the inputs of stabilizers or SAS, because I'm keen on experiencing the "pure flying experience" since the beginnings of my "career" as a flight-sim-pilot.

I'm curious about your approach there, and just to clarify: Do you mean you fly helicopters that include SAS as a normal system, i.e. not an arcade mode included by the developer, with SAS always disabled?

I turn off XP's internal stabilization, but I use the  "normal" (i.e. realistic) setting for SAS in something like the X-Trident Bell 412, because that's how real pilots fly them. They're not really meant to be flown without SAS at all; it's part of the flight model and systems design for more advanced helicopters. If you're avoiding SAS completely, you may not be experiencing the intended flight model realism built in by the designer.

P.S. I haven't tried the experimental flight model yet with a helicopter. I'd rather wait to see if the developer wants to update their distribution file to include it, but it's interesting to hear what others are finding with it. 

5 hours ago, Paraffin said:

I'm curious about your approach there, and just to clarify: Do you mean you fly helicopters that include SAS as a normal system, i.e. not an arcade mode included by the developer, with SAS always disabled?

I turn off XP's internal stabilization, but I use the  "normal" (i.e. realistic) setting for SAS in something like the X-Trident Bell 412, because that's how real pilots fly them. They're not really meant to be flown without SAS at all; it's part of the flight model and systems design for more advanced helicopters. If you're avoiding SAS completely, you may not be experiencing the intended flight model realism built in by the designer.

P.S. I haven't tried the experimental flight model yet with a helicopter. I'd rather wait to see if the developer wants to update their distribution file to include it, but it's interesting to hear what others are finding with it. 

Well, thank's for your good intentions, but  >>sigh 🤧<<, I've tried every single possible version.  SAS on & off, various aircrafts, experim. mode on and off, etc... .

Last but not least, even the default X-Plane Sikorsky started to behave like a ragging bull in the air, and obviously became a masochistic lover of the infamous VRS.

Finally, this short but painful v. 11.40 b2 experience was accompanied with lots of CTD's.  Must admit, this was by far the worst X-Plane beta version I've tested during my relatively short X-Plane "career" of two years.

So, I'm done with this buzzkill , and 'm rolling back to my current favourite version 11.32 R2 just at the moment.

 

Thank's and all the best.

PS:  Somethimes, X-Plane must be a real nightmare for 3rd party aircraft developers  😉.

4 hours ago, KBUR said:

Well, thank's for your good intentions, but  >>sigh 🤧<<, I've tried every single possible version.  SAS on & off, various aircrafts, experim. mode on and off, etc... .

Last but not least, even the default X-Plane Sikorsky started to behave like a ragging bull in the air, and obviously became a masochistic lover of the infamous VRS.

That doesn't sound like what most of us are experiencing with helicopters in this sim, especially the "raging bull" part. I've never seen that in XP11, including in the current 11.40b1. 

The default S-76 isn't the best available helicopter in the sim (all of those are payware), but it's a decent model for getting your control setup calibrated for helicopters. I suspect your controls might be the problem. Let us know what hardware you're using for flight controls, how they're calibrated, and maybe there is an answer to the problems. 

15 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

That doesn't sound like what most of us are experiencing with helicopters in this sim, especially the "raging bull" part. I've never seen that in XP11, including in the current 11.40b1. 

The default S-76 isn't the best available helicopter in the sim (all of those are payware), but it's a decent model for getting your control setup calibrated for helicopters. I suspect your controls might be the problem. Let us know what hardware you're using for flight controls, how they're calibrated, and maybe there is an answer to the problems. 

Offering your help is really nice , but I could solve all this problems I've listed already:  By just rolling back to version v.11.32 R2, and I'll stay with this version further for a while.

Honestly, I've changed absolutely nothing - just rolling back - and all these weired flight behaviiours including the input problems vanished.

By the way, I've invested a lot of time in setting up the (for my needs) right controller setup.  For cyclic I'm using the TM Warthog stick, and for the collective I built up my own (custom made).  This setup also works very well in my other sims and with its choppers too (DCS, Aerofly...), so nothing to compain about it.

I can understand that all this sounds - maybe - weired from your point of view, but it's the only I can tell you.

Howsoever many thanks for offering your help 😀.

 

Cheers,

Konrad

Going back or clinging to older X-Plane versions is perfectly viable - if you are ready to live with the fact that the X-Plane world will continue to evolve and get better - without you along for the ride.

I think the best way forward is to get involved and provide feedback, even if your observations don´t match what others say.

For me the helicopters work pretty much as before, with only very subtle changes, except for the VRS breaking a bit too readily...

Cheers, Jan

On 9/20/2019 at 10:48 PM, KBUR said:

Offering your help is really nice , but I could solve all this problems I've listed already:  By just rolling back to version v.11.32 R2, and I'll stay with this version further for a while.

Honestly, I've changed absolutely nothing - just rolling back - and all these weired flight behaviiours including the input problems vanished.

By the way, I've invested a lot of time in setting up the (for my needs) right controller setup.  For cyclic I'm using the TM Warthog stick, and for the collective I built up my own (custom made).  This setup also works very well in my other sims and with its choppers too (DCS, Aerofly...), so nothing to compain about it.

I can understand that all this sounds - maybe - weired from your point of view, but it's the only I can tell you.

Howsoever many thanks for offering your help 😀.

 

Cheers,

Konrad

I thought it wasn't possible to rollback with XP11. If so, could you elaborate steps? 

5 hours ago, Les Parson said:

I thought it wasn't possible to rollback with XP11. If so, could you elaborate steps? 

Oh, it's fairly easy and nothing to elaborate.  The only thing you have to do is to make a backup of your old version before updating to a newer one.  That's it, no secret 😉

It's something I got used to with all my different simulators; it makes the life for a swivel chair pilot significantly easier.

All the best.

You can keep as many copies of X-Plane in various stages of development as you like and as your diskspace supports.

The only real "rollback" you can do is if you decide to download a beta (by opt-in with that little checkmark) and if you later decide to NOT want to have the beta anymore you can uncheck the box, update, and your version will "downgrade" to the latest stable release version.

Once the new beta is declared "final" there is no rolling back like this, though...

Jan

 

Thanks very much for the info. I read somewhere some folks won't use beta versions because aircraft are not for these versions. I'm just curious, what type of aircraft updates are required and how long does it typically take for third part vendors like Carenado to update? I know on the FSX/P3D side, updates beyond v1.1 are a rarity. 

 

 

AFAIK, a good part of the Carenado fleet isn't even updated to 11.30 standard yet.

Beta 4 is available and has some much needed fixes to helicopters and the VRS. Things were dropping out of the sky quite frequently; https://developer.x-plane.com/2019/09/x-plane-11-40b4/