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sightseer

procedural runways?

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You might agree that the runways that we have seen dont look very special.  I'm wondering if they just havent delved deeply into that and maybe we will be getting procedurally generated runways.  does that make sense to anyone who knows more about shaders than I do?

Can you imagine what all they could do with all the different runway types? not to mention tarmac and other surfaces.  Do they generate buildings with shaders???

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|   Dave   |    

I've been around for most of my life.

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Isn't that what we have already in FSX/P3D? Runways are described in XML and the geometry and materials are generated on the fly based on the XML definitions for surface types and markings. The main problem is that the textures are low-resolution and the proceduralism only goes so far and doesn't account for wear, cracking, slope etc.

Generating buildings with geometry shaders would make a lot of sense. Could be the procedural grass they are showing off works that way too.


Barry Friedman

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I was thinking of pixel shader based runways and other surfaces where each pixel is colored to look like asphalt or concrete or whatever and a collection of these pixels would be a surface complete with cracks and crumbling edges or maybe brand new asphalt or aged concrete...whatever it may be.  The shaders would add lines and markings, tire tracks... they could show sun glare or rain puddles..or snow...all in the same shader.

The FSX runways were just textures applied to a surface I thought.

I must admit I dont know much about shader code but as I understand, they can draw anything that a programmer can create and they can influence/alter everything that is seen on screen.

Edited by sightseer

|   Dave   |    

I've been around for most of my life.

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I see, yes that would be pretty neat. I guess the current FSX/P3D runways are not shader-based but the XML is most likely all processed on the CPU to generate the geometry and textures and then it's rendered with the standard shader. The alternative is to give the runway description to the shader code and have it do all the work. See for example: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/tsjXDV


Barry Friedman

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P3D has a new feature for material scripting that can work with Lua and runways, per SDK P3D V4.5:

uc?id=1DVaMfaOzIB7MrMrXNIzEhBlNLm4Re8Aq

uc?id=1iWTlVgOvhc_nSJ-AtCIz3jAG0eP07Dlg

uc?id=1QCfK9x6jVvjN3LGuJmch_PRI2gzcMjvv

I personally have NOT tried Material Scripting yet, but I do plan to in the near future.

Cheers, Rob.

Edited by Rob_Ainscough

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While this doesn't appear to be a procedural runway, the trailer has a very nice example of a textured runway, maybe they'll not be so bad in some of the major airports at least.

fs2020-rwy-trailer.jpg

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I don't see why people are complaining about runways... they didn't even show much of them (and airports). From what they've shown so far, they look pretty good to me, like in this shot above, from the announcement trailer.

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The runways they've shown so far look very FSX-ish to me.  Imagine how much better they could look.

Its like the sky and clouds.  I could be wrong but the shots they've been showing recently are much better than some of the shots that we all saw in that first official trailer.  The scene landing at LAX with a red hue sunrise (has to be sunrise).  Compare that with ascending through clouds or the stall video.  I think they are improving things and showing a variety along the way.

Its not that the runways are really bad but it looks like what we've always had and Im betting they are going to do something pretty amazing.  maybe we see photoreal airport apron and runways down to a point and then the procedural stuff takes over to give it texture and life...and performance and options like sunglare or rain puddles or faded lines or varying tiremarks or asphalt that crumbles over time.  maybe its a dirt runway where the grass/weeds get higher if you dont land there often enough.  Who knows?

I think the imagination is the limit though.

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|   Dave   |    

I've been around for most of my life.

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 3:55 PM, sightseer said:

The runways they've shown so far look very FSX-ish to me.  Imagine how much better they could look.

The issue I would see with photo-real surfaces would be the resolution. The markings would be blurry and the AI would have a hard time editing out aircraft captured in the satellite image and interpreting what's hidden underneath. That's probably why airports will still be pretty basic looking no matter how much procedural generation they do. Like it or not, every airport is unique with unique structures and it would be pretty difficult to create every one to the right level of detail. Of course that's where addons come in anyway.

Edited by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!

Daniel Glover

P3Dv4 + XP11

MFS

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To add to the realism and immersion, perhaps some time after release, procedural cracks and weeds could be added to runways? Someone with authority would need to assign which airport/runways would receive the procedural grass and weeds,but first pilot flying into airports would "build" the cracks and weeds similar to how "No Man's Sky" builds a whole planet and saves on server.

Or, maybe Asobo already has a similar algorithm for building the procedural grass in the simulator so would not be that hard to add?

Here is real world photo of George T. Lewis Airport, Cedar Key FL (CDK)

It would give us bush flyers more immersion so that not every airport we fly into has this "perfect" cement or asphalt giving you a feeling of a sterile World.

cedarkey.jpg

Edited by KERNEL32
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Procedural runways to me means I have my Jeppesen charts on the go - I'm flying the VOR/ ILS or ADF.

Don't give a monkey's what the surface is - unless of course, it's contaminated - but I'll get that from the ATIS as I'm positioning 30 miles out. Asphalt, concrete, bitumen...they're all good surfaces to hit with the rubber.

What's your beef?

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On 9/21/2019 at 1:45 AM, Rob_Ainscough said:

P3D has a new feature for material scripting that can work with Lua and runways, per SDK P3D V4.5:

uc?id=1DVaMfaOzIB7MrMrXNIzEhBlNLm4Re8Aq

uc?id=1iWTlVgOvhc_nSJ-AtCIz3jAG0eP07Dlg

uc?id=1QCfK9x6jVvjN3LGuJmch_PRI2gzcMjvv

I personally have NOT tried Material Scripting yet, but I do plan to in the near future.

Cheers, Rob.

Send us a postcard from time to time Rob - to remind us of what we've escaped.

Lines of code....endless tweaks...endless this that and the other...

And that's what we all love that is gone...

One hopes....

Edited by Will Fly For Cheese
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25 minutes ago, Will Fly For Cheese said:

Procedural runways to me means I have my Jeppesen charts on the go - I'm flying the VOR/ ILS or ADF.

Don't give a monkey's what the surface is - unless of course, it's contaminated - but I'll get that from the ATIS as I'm positioning 30 miles out. Asphalt, concrete, bitumen...they're all good surfaces to hit with the rubber.

What's your beef?

It would be excellent to have modelling of contaminated runways and their effects on performance. Real as it gets and all that!

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i7-10700K; RTX 2070 Super; 16GB; P3Dv4.5HF3.

Aerosoft A32x and Majestic Q400 driver.

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1 hour ago, lambourne said:

It would be excellent to have modelling of contaminated runways and their effects on performance. Real as it gets and all that!

I believe they have suggested and demonstrated that we will have that very thing.

Aquaplaning - here we go.

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22 hours ago, KERNEL32 said:

To add to the realism and immersion, perhaps some time after release, procedural cracks and weeds could be added to runways? Someone with authority would need to assign which airport/runways would receive the procedural grass and weeds,but first pilot flying into airports would "build" the cracks and weeds similar to how "No Man's Sky" builds a whole planet and saves on server.

Or, maybe Asobo already has a similar algorithm for building the procedural grass in the simulator so would not be that hard to add?

Here is real world photo of George T. Lewis Airport, Cedar Key FL (CDK)

It would give us bush flyers more immersion so that not every airport we fly into has this "perfect" cement or asphalt giving you a feeling of a sterile World.

cedarkey.jpg

Thanks for sharing that photo. But.... the trees appear to be too tall. 😉

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Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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