January 31, 20206 yr My question is about these procedures in mid 70's, during time when 727 and L1011 were crossing skies. Were SIDs and STARs present those times ? How INS controlled planes fly in/out procedures ? Artur
January 31, 20206 yr 1 hour ago, Beardyman said: My question is about these procedures in mid 70's, during time when 727 and L1011 were crossing skies. Were SIDs and STARs present those times ? How INS controlled planes fly in/out procedures ? 70s? INS? Even in the 90s we were still flying SIDs and STARs with VOR radials, crossing radials and DME distances. You were really busy with station tuning etc. when flying e.g. into and out of CDG. Edited January 31, 20206 yr by FDEdev
January 31, 20206 yr Author So procedures were not programmed into INS, everything done manually - interesting... Have to challenge myself with L1011 :-) Artur
January 31, 20206 yr SIDs and STARs were solely based on VORs and DMEs. Can't remember, but I don't think that there were any coordinates given on these charts. The airliners I used to fly back then didn't even have INS, let alone FMCs. And yes, that is a challenge, especially with faster aircraft. Edited January 31, 20206 yr by FDEdev
January 31, 20206 yr That's why I've never use a GPS in any aircraft in the sim. 99% of the aircraft addon topics are about the GPS, LNAV and VNAV. If the FMC shows a wrong TOD, all hell brakes loose. Edited January 31, 20206 yr by FDEdev
January 31, 20206 yr 2 hours ago, FDEdev said: Even in the 90s we were still flying SIDs and STARs with VOR radials & today as well .... legacy procedures for non GPS equipped. it's an evolving "mode" ..... B742's in the '70's could with company data fly sids/stars with INS lateral profiles (provided primary reference was made to navaids) for now, cheers john martin
January 31, 20206 yr Programming an INS for SID will give you some great time if they change runway for your take off 🙂
January 31, 20206 yr 5 hours ago, FDEdev said: 70s? INS? Even in the 90s we were still flying SIDs and STARs with VOR radials, crossing radials and DME distances. You were really busy with station tuning etc. when flying e.g. into and out of CDG. Absolutely not true, since late 60's INS was used by airlines. In 70's we used INS in the B707 routinely for SIDS and STARS. Granted SIDS and STARS were not so complex as they are today. We also used LORAN, capable of storing wpts (by LAT and LONG) and executing SIDS and STARS. If I remember correctly PANAM had INS capability since 1964 or so. We where not busy at all, just a few wpts (between 8 to 40 at that time, based on the INS version) entered manually (by LAT and LONG), either we flew manual or just with the autopilot on (especially in FRA) and the INS or LORAN will sequence automatically the WPTS for us. CDG at that time (late 70s) was very relaxed compared to FRA. Even today in 2020 there are airplanes equipped with only VOR that fly SIDS and STARS and yes indeed they are very busy. 747 Captain for the last 39 years, and still learning.
January 31, 20206 yr 1 hour ago, KrisJ said: Programming an INS for SID will give you some great time if they change runway for your take off 🙂 Yes indeed, what a challenge. If that was the case, we just held our position somewhere on the field and re-program (it took between 5 minutes up to 15 if it was a complicated SID), on arrival (STAR) often we requested radar vectors or VOR to VOR, NDB to NDB. At that time ATC was not so busy as today and it worked quite fine. 747 Captain for the last 39 years, and still learning.
January 31, 20206 yr 41 minutes ago, killthespam said: Absolutely not true, since late 60's INS was used by airlines. Where did I say all airlines? Again, even in the 90s our aircraft weren't INS/FMS equipped. Edited January 31, 20206 yr by FDEdev
January 31, 20206 yr @FDEdev It was related to "70s? INS?". Regarding "Even in the 90s we were still flying SIDs and STARs with VOR radials, crossing radials and DME distances." I can see a challenge. 747 Captain for the last 39 years, and still learning.
January 31, 20206 yr 3 hours ago, killthespam said: Yes indeed, what a challenge. If that was the case, we just held our position somewhere on the field and re-program (it took between 5 minutes up to 15 if it was a complicated SID), on arrival (STAR) often we requested radar vectors or VOR to VOR, NDB to NDB. At that time ATC was not so busy as today and it worked quite fine. Right. So normally would you program only SID waypoints up to SID exit and then program the main route on flight?
January 31, 20206 yr 10 hours ago, FDEdev said: 70s? INS? Even in the 90s we were still flying SIDs and STARs with VOR radials, crossing radials and DME distances. You were really busy with station tuning etc. when flying e.g. into and out of CDG. I flew a Saab340 & a HS748 in the late 90s and yep it was as FEdev says though really as it was the norm it was no big deal. Edited January 31, 20206 yr by dbw1 spelling
January 31, 20206 yr It depends on the # of the wpts we could store. Normally at that time, 8 was quite sufficient to get you on the airways and the rest will give you some time on the route to start re-loading. Total pain in the ...you know. Newer model with more memory wasn't so bad but still will keep you busy. Lucky that we had (at that time) one, navigator, one radio operator that took care of the loading. Even the old FMC had limitations, I remember some models couldn't take a full load from JFK to DXB so here you have it. Now, in our days JFK to HKG still leaves more space to program the route from destination to alternate on route 2 without any problems. 747 Captain for the last 39 years, and still learning.
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