Why adjusting control sensitivity is not the answer

[sd_flyer 6,049]

3 minutes ago, SceneryFX said:

That's standard terminology to talk about the angle of the roll without specifying, sorry you don't understand. Sounds like your trolling. We all know the plane taking off could not pitch or yaw 90 degrees, so not sure what else to tell you.

As far as not being level, I'm not talking perfectly level, the plane rolls erratically under all conditions.

 

I really don't understand, no trolling. What you are saying when you take off, climb and fly level plane rolls to left side on it own with neutral control input? Is that right?

Edited August 20, 2020 by sd_flyer

[cwburnett 1,809]

3 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

I'm still confused. You do you mean. "wings are not level even in 0 mph winds"? 

I think he's saying that in the sim, the TBM is inherently unstable in roll and that a small roll can start due to some air instability or yaw oversensitivity and that roll continues, rather than returning to level flight, even in a no-wind situation. And I agree, this would be a problem. Except that the TBM is one of the aircraft I have spent quite a bit of time in, in the alpha and since release, and I haven't observed that behavior, but I could have just trained myself to address it...so I'll give it a go and maybe even make a video later today.

14 minutes ago, SceneryFX said:

No thanks, I don't feel like arguing about it. The Cessnas and the DA-62 fly fine so far, haven't flown that much else. The TBM has issues, as does the turbo props. 

I realize some people are getting frustrated because they think that others are needlessly defending the sim. That's true in a few cases, but for the most part, we're all just trying to figure out...what's new or different that maybe feels like a bug just because it is different from XP or P3D but actually isn't, what's an actual sim engine bug, what's a model bug, etc... so a little patience...and most importantly, how can we get these things fixed? Putting together coherent and actionable bug reports for Asobo to be submitted into zendesk is the best we can do, so if there's really a problem with the stability of the TBM, let's nail it down, make a recording, provide some data and submit it...that's the best we can do!

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

I'm glad it is not doing that for everyone, but I have doubts. 

Let me try again. The plane turns invisible, explodes in a rampant cessation of invisible particle effects which then become magnetized and somehow automatically come back together. It is in the coming back together where the plane is suddenly at 90 degrees. I hope that clears it up.

 

[sd_flyer 6,049]

10 minutes ago, cwburnett said:

I think he's saying that in the sim, the TBM is inherently unstable in roll and that a small roll can start due to some air instability or yaw oversensitivity and that roll continues, rather than returning to level flight, even in a no-wind situation. And I agree, this would be a problem. Except that the TBM is one of the aircraft I have spent quite a bit of time in, in the alpha and since release, and I haven't observed that behavior, but I could have just trained myself to address it...so I'll give it a go and maybe even make a video later today.

 

OK so TBM has problem with static lateral stability in rough air?

[mazex 419]

Well - I have a Virpil Warbrd base and a T50 CM2 grip and the sensitivities actually feel perfect for me with no need for adjustment. But that combo really is like a stick with a short extension compared to "normal" joysticks. And it has a much longer throw than a standard stick. 

But from my Combat sim background (DCS, IL2 BoX) I am very much used to fiddle with curves, sensitivity etc that is considered "standard procedure" in that domain.

[sd_flyer 6,049]

15 minutes ago, SceneryFX said:

I'm glad it is not doing that for everyone, but I have doubts. 

Let me try again. The plane turns invisible, explodes in a rampant cessation of invisible particle effects which then become magnetized and somehow automatically come back together. It is in the coming back together where the plane is suddenly at 90 degrees. I hope that clears it up.

 

Dude, seriously!  I've been flying for 19 years, and being flight instructor I  thought I heard it all but your case I'm in loss. Perhaps language could be a barrier here, so there no one to blame! With cwburnett help I understated I refer with static lateral stability problem in TBM. Meaning in rough air wing depart to the left or right roll which exhibit negative lateral static stability while real TBM doesn't have it. Did you get you right?   

[Slides 1,552]

1 minute ago, mazex said:

But from my Combat sim background (DCS, IL2 BoX) I am very much used to fiddle with curves, sensitivity etc that is considered "standard procedure" in that domain.

I have the same background and flying in combat sims without sensitivity adjustments just gets you shot down faster.

[cwburnett 1,809]

8 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

OK so TBM has problem with static lateral stability in rough air?

I think he's saying even in smooth air; I'll test it later.

[sd_flyer 6,049]

1 minute ago, cwburnett said:

I think he's saying even in smooth air; I'll test it later.

I gotta test as well. I haven't flown it since alpha!

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

It seems to happen regardless of weather conditions, but overall I'd say something like that. The weather engine is so bugged  for me, I'm not even sure, I need to double check it again. 

Look, overall I think they did a superb job. I am amazed at how well they did the trees over the orthoimagery and how even when orthoimagery isn't the highest quality, it still looks decent in many places (not withstanding some tiles that are off color or contrast). There is still room for third party developers to improve on the scenery, even the ground textures to an extent (some 30-60cm native might be interesting in this sim).

My best guess is that what we are seeing is downscaled to about 80cm equivalent, and then heavily processed. It doesn't quite look 1.2m bad, but it also doesn't quite look as sharp as 60cm, and definitely not close to 30cm. It's so heavily processed though it's hard to tell, it could be downscaled to 1.2m, but in some areas looks higher than that.

Overall, it's an amazing job in most respects. Too bad this didn't come out 5 years ago, I am a tad more burnt out on flying sims than before, but this is still fun.

Edited August 20, 2020 by SceneryFX

[virtualstuff 759]

2 hours ago, hangar said:

You do realize that Hotstart ended up actually removing the torque effects from their TBM?

It was in there originally but they removed it due to everyone complaining that it made the plane too difficult for them to fly 🙂

If there's a green trim indicator for the rudder (on the mfd?), try centering the rudder trim on it before takeoff just to see if that helps...you never know.

Well I wouldn't mind to have that one in MSFS 🙂

[pao 55]

At the end, there are 13 pages of posts and we still don't know what we should do with the settings....   Are we supposed, Rob, to keep the sensitivity to 0% (fully linear) ?     I hope that when add-ons comes out, the devs will advise what settings we shoud go for because this is going nowhere....

Edited August 20, 2020 by pao

[rjack1282 316]

This is the best discussion on this topic I have seen and I still don't know what to do with the settings if anything lol.  I guess we're still going to need more time for the experts to figure it out.

[molleh 451]

7 minutes ago, pao said:

At the end, there are 13 pages of posts and we still don't know what we should do with the settings....   Are we supposed, Rob, to keep the sensitivity to 100% (fully linear) ?     I hope that when add-ons comes out, the devs will advise what settings we shoud go for because this is going nowhere....

It should be fully linear when using controllers (yokes, joysticks, pedals, throttle quadrants) that are reasonably close to real-life range of movement. In my opinion, most controllers do fall under that category. For example, I use a CH yoke and while it's has shorter throws compared to real ones, there's enough movement that a 100% linear curve (weird oxymoron there) is still ideal.

It's when you get into using things like gamepads, mice or probably some of the specialty devices for folks with limited mobility where curves become a necessity due to very short-throw controls.

[bonchie 2,305]

Sensitivity helps some, but because it's not linear, you get wild shifts at the farther ends of the axis.

They need a dual control where you can adjust sensitivity, but also the curve separately.