1 minute ago, norman_99 said:

what do I use as a reference?

I use the one where I don't plow into into the ground. 😁 

Yes, there are more realistic ways of going about it. One mentioned by @cwburnett earlier. Compare the deflections of the controls in the sim vs your yoke/stick and adjust using that.

2 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

I don't buy into everything has to be a linear line. Far from it.

Even aircraft with mechanical linkages are not 100% technically linear in actual flying. Aerodynamic forces applied to the control surfaces will change how you are able to control the surfaces with the same amount of force (but not necessarily travel). And add on servos to help with this and it becomes even less linear. Since we don't have force feedback, we need curves.

3 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

DCS F-18, I real life F-18 pilot sat down to try it out, his first words were "this is way..way to sensitive"

Could that statement not also mean the actual flight model is overly sensitive, and the addition of a curve merely tries to make correction to this? Genuine question.

I've flown the DCS Hornet out of the box, and your right, it's incredibly sensitive. I actually did exactly what you did to make it flyable. But I felt completely let down by having to do that. I have no real life reference  to compare it to, so my subsequent Hornet experience was completely based on my best guess. DCS for me personally, is just a bit of a fun way to do something I'll otherwise never get to do, so I let that go and moved on.

I do however have a much closer affinity to FS, and therefore care about it's progress more. 

No flight model, whether it's a PC simulator like FS/DCS or a $20M level D machine, is ever perfect. Therefore shouldn't we continue to try and improve these in a repeatable, measurable manner? Not resort to individual, by feel corrections with wildly varying end results?

It's a very long topic I see and glad that I'm not the only one 

It was also my first "shocking" experience after installing the new sim that the "jerky" behavior of the planes was totally different then in other flight sims so my first step was to tune my Microsoft Joystick but without any luck. 

I hope they can make a fix very soon for it because it's a beautiful sim but the flight dynamics thru a Joystick is a complete showstopper for me.

Happy landings...

 

The idea that from the FSL A320 in P3D to DCS F-16-F-14 F-18 having linair controls is just ridiculous. Like Slides says we need curves because we don't have force feedback and we need more a flatter curve around dead zones on axis and pitch. Also rudders work better also with a nice curve, even breaks as we cannot feel the biting points.

So if you feel a flat linair line is the way to go. Enjoy! 

O and to make the point perfectly try air to air refueling in DCS with a F-14-F-16-F-18 with no curves......GL. Because even a RL F-18 pilot says you  need them to make it feel right and react like the real thing does.

16 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

Could that statement not also mean the actual flight model is overly sensitive, and the addition of a curve merely tries to make correction to this? Genuine question.

I've flown the DCS Hornet out of the box, and your right, it's incredibly sensitive. I actually did exactly what you did to make it flyable. But I felt completely let down by having to do that. I have no real life reference  to compare it to, so my subsequent Hornet experience was completely based on my best guess. DCS for me personally, is just a bit of a fun way to do something I'll otherwise never get to do, so I let that go and moved on.

I do however have a much closer affinity to FS, and therefore care about it's progress more. 

No flight model, whether it's a PC simulator like FS/DCS or a $20M level D machine, is ever perfect. Therefore shouldn't we continue to try and improve these in a repeatable, measurable manner? Not resort to individual, by feel corrections with wildly varying end results?

Well you will have to be completely let down then. Try the FSL A320 out you will be let down there as well even if real life pilots use it to train. 

A question that is often asked in flight sims is " could you take over ...lets say a 737 if the there was an emergence?

The best reply I ever read was by a real world 737 captain, he said yes you could take over the aircraft and program it etc, but......not land it, because you have no idea or feel for how the real yoke and plane react to your inputs. Autoland yes.

All controllers feel and react differently, I try to get the best I can afford and there night and day from a cheap joystick, so the thought you can have a flat linair line that works for a cheap control and works perfectly with a high end one is, sorry a joke.

Take my Rudders, i had a Saitek rudders £100, they were OK, work fine. I then invested into TM TPR, the amount of control and feel is nothing like the Saitek ones or would I expect them to be at that price. But there not forcefeed back so unlike a real aircraft were you can feel the force of the plane on them, you cannot, so you want to "feel" it in a different way and the best way I have found in DCS/P3D (FSUIP)/MSFS is to have a curve. I even bought FSUIP to gain curves in P3D.

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by Nyxx

4 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

Could that statement not also mean the actual flight model is overly sensitive, and the addition of a curve merely tries to make correction to this?

Not really. In real life, the pilot will himself unconsciously apply a sensitivity curve to his controls through not over correcting based on the acting g-forces and aerodynamic forces on his aircraft. Pilots learn to this the first time they over control and feel those g-forces. We can't feel g or aero forces sitting in front of our chairs.

 

ppl are so used to flying on rails..so some atmospheric disturance disturbs them, yes.

maybe go back to legacy mode? i am not sure what it really does, dont need it.

i find the ga planes fun to fly. just a lil oversensitive, but only a lil.

8 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Well you will have to be completely let down then. Try the FSL A320 out you will be let down there as well even if real life pilots use it to train. 

I was let down by ultimately having to decide how I wanted the aircraft to handle myself, instead of having someone more qualified be able to provide that for me. 

I agree curves can be used to make small final adjustments bases on an individuals setup. ie, +/- a couple % due to an overly tight or loose centering mechanism. But they should not be used to the huge amount that have bee talked about here. Currently, people are making huge modifications that fundamentally change how the handling of the aircraft feel, just as much as any skilled FDE designer could.

If MSFS flight dynamics are not made for 'cheap' controls without a curve, and they're not made for high end controls without a curve either, then should Asobo provide some guidance as to what sort of curve they have based their flight dynamics around? You'd therefore have to assume they use curves internally in testing too. If they state "we built our FDE around a 60% curve in pitch, but you may need +/- 10% depending on your controller" that would make perfect sense. Even better, provide curves as part of the joystick support so each user get an initial setup that is appropriate to their system. That gets everyone in the ballpark.

At the moment all anyone is doing is taking their best guess, because as it ships out of the box, with straight curves, no one is happy, and therefore everyone makes changes.

2 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

I was let down by ultimately having to decide how I wanted the aircraft to handle myself, instead of having someone more qualified be able to provide that for me. 

 

You're the most qualified to decide that. Control sensitivity for flight sims is the equivalent of the seat of your pants experience in real life. Only you can figure that out.

Linear controls would make perfect sense if we had the exact same travel in our control sticks/yokes AND could feel g and aero forces. We can't, as essentially all aircraft in a flight sim are FBW aircraft. Otherwise they would be uncontrollable or wildly inaccurate.

If I went down this path, have you fond one curve for pitch and one for roll are suitable for every aircraft? 747 through to Pitts/Extra?

8 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

If I went down this path, have you fond one curve for pitch and one for roll are suitable for every aircraft? 747 through to Pitts/Extra?

I have but still needs to be tested. I haven't even flown all the default aircraft yet. It might need different curves.

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by Slides

4 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

I was let down by ultimately having to decide how I wanted the aircraft to handle myself, instead of having someone more qualified be able to provide that for me. 

I agree curves can be used to make small final adjustments bases on an individuals setup. ie, +/- a couple % due to an overly tight or loose centering mechanism. But they should not be used to the huge amount that have bee talked about here. Currently, people are making huge modifications that fundamentally change how the handling of the aircraft feel, just as much as any skilled FDE designer could.

If MSFS flight dynamics are not made for 'cheap' controls without a curve, and they're not made for high end controls without a curve either, then should Asobo provide some guidance as to what sort of curve they have based their flight dynamics around? You'd therefore have to assume they use curves internally in testing too. If they state "we built our FDE around a 60% curve in pitch, but you may need +/- 10% depending on your controller" that would make perfect sense. Even better, provide curves as part of the joystick support so each user get an initial setup that is appropriate to their system. That gets everyone in the ballpark.

At the moment all anyone is doing is taking their best guess, because as it ships out of the box, with straight curves, no one is happy, and therefore everyone makes changes.

Well that's is exactly what happened, MSFS saw my TH HOTAS and added a 50% curve to pitch and roll out the box, I fine turned it by adding another 10%,

If MSFS had programed that 50% in without showing it, so it looked like a linear line and then I added another 10% that would be all fine and danny with you?

8 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

If I went down this path, have you fond one curve for pitch and one for roll are suitable for every aircraft? 747 through to Pitts/Extra?

Why would you want to, your holding the same stick that's where it should end. I have different curves for a biz jet. Not doning airlines in MSFS, P3D v5 is for FSL/PMDG.

7 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Well that's is exactly what happened, MSFS saw my TH HOTAS and added a 50% curve to pitch and roll out the box, I fine turned it by adding another 10%,

If MSFS had programed that 50% in without showing it, so it looked like a linear line and then I added another 10% that would be all fine and danny with you?

That's interesting, I didn't know curves were part of the supplied profile for supported joysticks. That might be part of the problem why there is so much breadth of opinion on whether aircraft handle 'well' out of the box. People probably have a preset curve without even knowing.

My controls weren't supported so I have to do everything manually.