2 hours ago, kapitan said:

So after 23 pages what is the verdict of the title thread?

is it or not worthy to reduce sensitivity a bit?

I think the general agreement is, given the current state of the sim and aircraft FDEs, curves, sometimes quite significant, are required to tame twitchiness and over sensitivity.

The confusion that has arisen is due to some (all?) supported controllers being supplied with preset curves, whilst non supported controllers not receiving any. This has lead to the hugely varying opinions of whether it flys well out of the box we’ve seen debated here. Many people will have had curves applied without even realising.

Regardless of the flight dynamics debate, it is incredibly poor that the first experience some people get flying this new sim can be so varied, at times even polar opposites. One can experience smooth, precise flight, whilst the other encounters an overly sensitive, twitchy, frustrating aircraft. Yet both are right! 

1 hour ago, norman_99 said:

I think the general agreement is, given the current state of the sim and aircraft FDEs, curves, sometimes quite significant, are required to tame twitchiness and over sensitivity.

The confusion that has arisen is due to some (all?) supported controllers being supplied with preset curves, whilst non supported controllers not receiving any. This has lead to the hugely varying opinions of whether it flys well out of the box we’ve seen debated here. Many people will have had curves applied without even realising.

Regardless of the flight dynamics debate, it is incredibly poor that the first experience some people get flying this new sim can be so varied, at times even polar opposites. One can experience smooth, precise flight, whilst the other encounters an overly sensitive, twitchy, frustrating aircraft. Yet both are right! 

thank you, its a fair judgement. Hope in next SP they will make all joystick detectable with preset curves as they are supposed to have

Let the Tweaking begin. I've been able to smooth out Pitch roll and yaw by modifying the aircraft cfg. Elevator, Aileron and Rudder effectiveness numbers as outlined in Tips and Tricks. May not be for those not familiar with the old FSX "Flight Tuning."

my joystick had to be manually configured.

I set the Z Axis (Rudder) sensitivity to -82% and have been happy ever since

4 hours ago, hangar said:

That would certainly be a first, now wouldn't it?

I keep thinking that at least if there were 2 decent flying planes (by decent I mean that you could operate them within the typical phases of flight in which you'd operate their real world counterparts and get behavior and numbers that would reasonably represent reality), a useful gps system and an in-flight map then at least I could know I'd have something to use the sim for "right now", after spending my money.

I dunno...this is the first time in 30 years I have not JUMPED on a new MSFS on it's release day. It's not really to do with the money spent (as I can try it for $1)...it's mostly about usability and disappointment for me.

Dave, we need to get you on board, because what you want does exist. I know it's not my job to convince you, but you've been such a fixture in this thread, that I feel like you need to get in some of these planes and experience it for yourself. 😉 I can't contradict anything @norman_99 says about the 208, but it is the plane I have the most time on in MSFS, since I just got my hands on the Baron this week. AND it is one of the few that hasn't ever caused me autopilot problems... I have loved flying it. I have literally flown to dozens of small strips in Africa with it and the experience has been breathtaking. I have also flown it around the Alps - you can spend a day just exploring around LOWI, it's great. Contrary to some reports, you can enter a flight plan, it will follow the flight plan. You need to manage the vertical profile independently, but that's not hard. You can fly instrument approaches. What you can't do I've documented here and elsewhere - you can't modify the flight plan or go direct to interim waypoints. You can change the active leg. This is basically true for all the Garmin avionics in sim. The TBM also flies great, IMO (and you can watch my video about it upthread).You will have to ignore the turbine engine characteristics for the time being - they're not very accurate, but that doesn't make flying around in them less fun (for me at least). Frankly, other than the MJC Dash 8, no sim turboprop has gotten in totally right... The DA-62 is also nice to fly, though is easy to tailstrike. By the way, can we just admire for a moment, that when you drag the tail on the runway, an awful scraping noise accompanies it. In P3D, you could tail strike all day long and never know. This sim makes DARN sure you know you blew it...

So, what can we do to convince you? Do you want to see a full flight somewhere in a plane?

For now, you have to leave the jets behind - they'll disappoint anyone detail oriented. But this sim is best enjoyed for the first month or so in small mountain airstrips and sleepy rural dirt strips...

Just my 2 cents ... could there be a change in the way sensitivity adjustment is managed by the sims? 

Is it possible that up until now, sensitivity adjustment was kind of authority sensitivity adjustment?  With higher adjustment, the sim exaggerates rudder's / aileron's effectiveness and with lower adjustment it reduces it but it also has a realistic minimum and maximum effectiveness.  As our controls do not deflect as much as those in real aircrafts, this adjustment seems to be moving the portion of the curve our joysticks can simulate. Suppose we can simulate half of the curve, this setting seems to set it on the top of the curve or at the bottom of the curve.   It’s then a continuous change no matter where the joystick is, close to neutral or close to max deflection.  It's linear like some says. I tested this with a Twin Otter in P3DV5. There’s not too much difference between 1 and 127 as sensitivity setting. It always looks like a Twin Otter (I’ve already flown with this plane) which means no fast nor drastic changes in attitude.  I suspect that only real Twin Otter pilots could say which sensitivity setting is best for a controller. No matter what the sensitivity adjustment is, no matter where the joystick is, it's always a Twin Otter. 

Now, could the new sim be managing the authority only with a curve adjustment to compensate for the smaller movement joystick (like Xbox) without any maximum and minimum effectiveness? Minimum and maximum effectiveness could be the biggest problem. It should stay within reasonable limits. I don’t have MSFS 2020 right now (not sure I will buy it soon now …), but I understand that to get realistic result people must reduce effectiveness so that effectiveness is not exaggerated close to neutral but it becomes exaggerated farther from neutral. To test minimal effectiveness like I did with P3D, it would be fun to know if, with sensitivity reduced to the minimum possible, pilot has any control on the plane. If it has almost no control, that doesn’t make any sense.  This could be an easy conclusion. This way a problem is fixed in creating another problem.

If we come back to the MSFS 2020 sensitivity curve we can see, FSX and P3D model seems to give only a part of this curve but always with a straight 45 deg. line and the new MSFS 2020 model is to bend the curve to fit with the joystick deflection. To me first model is the best one. 

Finally, is there a way to get the model most people are used to and comfortable with? Some posts ago, someone reported a Tips and Tricks post giving something that could do the job. See this post  How to make pitch and yaw control less twitchy By RALF9636

https://www.avsim.com/forums/forum/884-msfs-2020-tips-and-tricks-forum/

That may be what most people are looking for, it’s certainly worth having a look at that. 

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by untel123
typo

2 hours ago, cwburnett said:

So, what can we do to convince you? Do you want to see a full flight somewhere in a plane?

I appreciate your passion for both the hobby and MSFS.

It's not that I don't intend on giving it a try, I will...especially if the Baron gets some love. I know I can tweak configs but I was just trying to get away from that for once as, like Rob, my health hasn't exactly been 100% lately and I'm getting grouchy these days about games that release too early. You know how it is.

I've been slowly trying to get myself used to the idea of buying it to just use as a more simple minded vfr experience. I get close to pulling the trigger but then I end up watching a video and see the aircraft's nose pop up like a puppet on a string but the yoke barely moved...it's difficult to watch that and not think "toy". I'm hoping some sort of pitch moment adjustment can at least band aid this, but again...not really feeling like hopping on that tweak-mobile again.

Hey...if you get the chance at all over the weekend...could you take a short video while taxiing around at KFRG? I'm just curious as to how the layout and buildings turned out over there as it's my home base. It's not like it's your job to sit around doing me a favor but, if you're looking for something to do and have the time available, I'd certainly owe you a beer!

 

2 hours ago, hangar said:

I appreciate your passion for both the hobby and MSFS.

[SNIP]

Hey...if you get the chance at all over the weekend...could you take a short video while taxiing around at KFRG? I'm just curious as to how the layout and buildings turned out over there as it's my home base. It's not like it's your job to sit around doing me a favor but, if you're looking for something to do and have the time available, I'd certainly owe you a beer!

I haven't decided if I'm passionate about MSFS. But the hobby, yes. Part of the fun for me is discussing aviation and helping people get the best experience possible, whether talking to "real" pilots on beechtalk or "desk" pilots here. Honestly, desk flying offers a lot more flexibility and doesn't require the same attention to detail - lives aren't at stake!

So, here's a little drone tour of KFRG...I thought this might be a good way to do it and I wanted to learn the drone anyhow - I haven't used it yet, so I plugged in the trusty old XBOX controller and - what do you know - it's all preconfigured and so I just switched to the drone and off I went... 

 

And then I thought I'd do a quick flight around in the 208 to show off one of my in-game favs...

 

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by cwburnett

1 hour ago, cwburnett said:

So, here's a little drone tour of KFRG...I thought this might be a good way to do it and I wanted to learn the drone anyhow - I haven't used it yet, so I plugged in the trusty old XBOX controller and - what do you know - it's all preconfigured and so I just switched to the drone and off I went... 

Hey I owe you one CW, thanks very much for making the video... you were extremely thorough with all the great camera work!

I too have an xbox controller (i have the 360 and also the wireless xbox1 version), so I'll probably just pull it out and use it as drone too.

AS for the airport itself...the taxiways are pretty decent...the buildings are passable (just a little off, not too bad) but the bad part is that they left out both control towers (yes there's actually 2 towers on the grounds). Weird how it left out both, ha!

I like flying a 208 as well sometimes. I plan on trying it in msfs as well as the TBM, baron and kingair. I'm going to be little busy tomorrow but im going to try and get the sim installed this weekend and get all my controls set. Probably tomorrow nite and/or sunday.

So question for you...Im either getting the deluxe or the premium deluxe. The only 2 reasons I have for even considering the premium is for the sr22 (which I heard is pretty bad as far as its RW accuracy) and the Longitude jet. Most folks agree that the jets are a waste...so does that also include the Longitude?...if so the regular deluxe (with the baron and c172 steam) is likely the best choice, yes?

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by hangar

10 hours ago, norman_99 said:

One can experience smooth, precise flight, whilst the other encounters an overly sensitive, twitchy, frustrating aircraft.

Actually, I don't think you can even do that. Yes we can drop the sensitivity of controllers, but we still have a flight model where the nose is wandering about all over the place, and that's nothing to do with control inputs. Then when we do drop the sensitivity of the controller axes to stop the thing being even worse, we end up with barely enough elevator response to perform an acceptable flare. 

The sim looks great, but the flight model in regards to its completely over the top sensitivity is, to put it bluntly, bloody awful and it's in dropping axes curves which we make it tolerable, rather than acceptable.

If anyone thinks having the nose wander about all over the place like a car on which the track rods that have fallen off, is how aeroplanes fly, then I'd really love to know which real actual aeroplane they were in, because it needs its airworthiness certificate withdrawing immediately. If aeroplanes actually flew like this in real life, plane crashes on the TV news would be a daily occurrence.

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by Chock

31 minutes ago, hangar said:

So question for you...Im either getting the deluxe or the premium deluxe. The only 2 reasons I have for even considering the premium is for the sr22 (which I heard is pretty bad as far as its RW accuracy) and the Longitude jet. Most folks agree that the jets are a waste...so does that also include the Longitude?...if so the regular deluxe (with the baron and c172 steam) is likely the best choice, yes?

I flew the Longitude last night for the first time. I wasn't impressed. It has potential, but it's really just a little bit of a disaster right now. The CJ4 is much better, though also has as much thrust as the space shuttle. As far as the big jets, the only one I can get next to is the Neo, in which it is possible to do a full flight using the automation. But, I don't actually see myself doing that much. The TBM and 208 are just too much fun, at least for now.

I ended up going with Premium Deluxe Platinum Diamond edition because of the extra airports. Namely FRA, SFO and LHR. None of the planes in that edition are worth it, IMO having now bought it. For the price difference, it might have been better to just wait and buy FRA, SFO and LHR from 3PDs when they become available.

I did one more video today of the free airport pack Drzewiecki Design released for Warsaw - they're three grass strips around Warsaw and they're pretty neat. In the 208.

 

11 minutes ago, cwburnett said:

The CJ4 is much better, though also has as much thrust as the space shuttle

LOL. Been there, done that. 🙃

Thank God it has the range of a Pizza delivery electric bike!

 

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by RamonB

8 hours ago, cwburnett said:

 I can't contradict anything @norman_99 says about the 208

Well it turns out I can now contradict my self, and I have been partially wrong with my C208 assessment. I just discovered the flap 10 position has been omitted completely! I just use switches to raise and lower flap, so I never noticed. I've either been flying around with no flap, or 20 degrees, when I thought I had 10 degrees. This partially explains some of the handling, and the odd unexpected stall warning, Haha. In this light, it's better than I first thought. Not great, but not unflyable either.

Edited August 22, 20205 yr by norman_99

10 hours ago, kapitan said:

thank you, its a fair judgement. Hope in next SP they will make all joystick detectable with preset curves as they are supposed to have

Yikes, 24 pages in! Can someone comment if altering the cfg file does the trick to dampen the sensitivity? Not a big fan of altering the cfg file at this early stage of the game. I’ve written off my current (very old) joystick as obsolete and going for something new.

That would be wonderful as kapitan states, but in the meantime, if I keep altering the curve with 1% at a time (trial and error)  will I find a value that will make my joystick useable? Or is it just old joystick (Microsoft Sidewider) with FS2020. BTW this joystick works with precision with XP11.

48 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

Well it turns out I can now contradict my self, and I have been partially wrong with my C208 assessment. I just discovered the flap 10 position has been omitted completely! I just use switches to raise and lower flap, so I never noticed. I've either been flying around with no flap, or 20 degrees, when I thought I had 10 degrees. This partially explains some of the handling, and the odd unexpected stall warning, Haha. In this light, it's better than I first thought. Not great, but not unflyable either.

Still a bit off to me. I tried to fly fully loaded at max gross and I can’t even reach 3000 ft without stall horn flaps or no flaps. Can’t believe Caravan would do it in real life