4 minutes ago, RudyB24 said:

If all is fine than let's move on and discuss tail biting with fattening pigs ... we need something to discuss. 🙂

Now we are talking 🙂

Shouldn't the difference between non force feedback providing controls and the real thing be most extreme at the extreme edges of the controls range? That's where the largest control forces are felt in real life. The issue people are having in the sim is the very initial control inputs, where aerodynamics forces in real life, whilst still present, are at their minimum.

You can fly a real 172 with two fingers, using very small, precise inputs. The forces felt are absolutely minimal. Obviously you can wack in full aileron at cruise speed, and the control forces will be considerable heavier. 

This all means with our non feedback controls, we should actually have a relatively realistic control feel and response with smaller inputs. The tendency to over control should be minimal. As control input size increases, we are missing more and more of the increasing aerodynamic forces that are present in real life. Over controlling should become much more problematic at the outer edges of our controls range, as we have no forces opposing out input.

Everything mentioned above is simply aerodynamic theory, that should be present in each aircraft's FDE. We should not have to recreate this effect with steep control curves, but it seems that's what is required, and those with supported controls are getting this done automatically. What's effectively happening now is curves are being added to correct an inaccurate FDE, and create the correct control response that is not being generated aerodynamically in the sim.

In theory, those without force feed back providing controls (almost all of us), should be complaining about over controlling aircraft at the outer edges of out input range, and and we would then be  creating control curves to counter this, and truly using them to 'calibrate' individual setups.

Anyway, at the moment it seems significant curves are required, and some get this automatically. 

I'm off to go buzz a tower somewhere...

 

11 minutes ago, RudyB24 said:

But would you not agree that moving the yoke back and forth should move the elevator surface up and down ... in the same manner and rate in the sim the same as in real?

For the purpose of simplification, let's assume the your controls have the exact same throw range as the real aircraft.

In a real aircraft, depending on airspeed and other factors, you might find it very difficult to move the yoke at full deflection in certain cases due to aerodynamic forces acting on the control surfaces. 

In your PC, there's no such thing and you could theoretically move your yoke at full deflection at a high rate of speed with no problem.

That linear 1:1 input is already dead in the water between your control input and the aircraft in the sim.

6 minutes ago, norman_99 said:

Shouldn't the difference between non force feedback providing controls and the real thing be most extreme at the extreme edges of the controls range?

I would think so. Unless the default sensitivity in the sim is set up that a small control input leads to a much more rapid and larger in sim input. That's when you need a curve.

39 minutes ago, Slides said:

In a real aircraft, depending on airspeed and other factors, you might find it very difficult to move the yoke at full deflection in certain cases due to aerodynamic forces acting on the control surfaces. 

Of course ... fully agreed. But as norman_99 just said too, we seldom need max deflections. In normal flight the majority of yoke / joystick inputs are in a relatively small area around zero. And even the effect you describe could easily be modeled by making the max possible deflection (in the software) speed dependent.

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by RudyB24

1 minute ago, RudyB24 said:

Of course ... fully agreed. But as norman_99 just said too, we seldom need max deflections. In normal flight the majority of yoke / joystick inputs are in a relatively small area around zero.

Agreed. And the key is to determine actual in sim control deflection vs aircraft movement to see if that's accurate.

Your physical yoke or stick in front of your PC might be moving very little but if the default sensitivity or ratio is high it will seem inaccurate until you test it out from what's happening in the sim.

What we think is a linear input curve out of the box, might not actually be even linear.

So after 23 pages what is the verdict of the title thread?

is it or not worthy to reduce sensitivity a bit?

we need force feedback! 😁

 

8 hours ago, robert young said:

It would be nice for a change to have at least some default aircraft that operate reasonably well by default.

That would certainly be a first, now wouldn't it?

I keep thinking that at least if there were 2 decent flying planes (by decent I mean that you could operate them within the typical phases of flight in which you'd operate their real world counterparts and get behavior and numbers that would reasonably represent reality), a useful gps system and an in-flight map then at least I could know I'd have something to use the sim for "right now", after spending my money.

I dunno...this is the first time in 30 years I have not JUMPED on a new MSFS on it's release day. It's not really to do with the money spent (as I can try it for $1)...it's mostly about usability and disappointment for me.

7 hours ago, tweekz said:

Where did they say that?

In the Livestream. I believe they were asked if they intended on improving the default planes and responded that they'd prefer to defer to 3rd party development for aircraft. They exclaimed that the "base" or "core" package is what they do best and where they see themselves being needed the most and that 3rd party's are to take the role in providing aircraft.

However, if you look at their roadmap you can clearly see they are supposed to be working on certain aircraft dynamics, such as the inertia issue...that being said I don't recall seeing much else about the aircraft mentioned on it...nor many of the other glaring issues in the sim.

It's certainly going to be interesting to see how they now respond over the next 12 months considering the feedback from paying customers, regardless of what a roadmap says. I hope they respond publicly and keep communicating so we all know what their intentions are regarding the issues at hand.

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by hangar

18 hours ago, cwburnett said:

Or put simpler, try about 0 to -10% for roll, and -40% to -60% for pitch.

Ok I also have a Honey Comb yoke so will give that a shot.  Thanks for the help.

I was able to get my first hour of flying on the sim last night. I have the warthog HOTAS and I didn't change a darn thing sensitivity wise.

I flew the 172 with analogue gauges. With that said, I had no issues with over controlling. It felt very nice.

I will say I did move the yoke around on the ground and yeah, the curves used for inputs are weird looking. That made me worried....until I took off.

My resume?

Current airline check airman with over 1000 dual given in 152s, 172s and a ton of Pipers and around 6000 hours total time with 4500 hours in the jet.

All that for what it's worth. 

This reminds me of when FS9 came out, the default aircraft flight models were unbelievably terrible, or as Microsoft put it “As real as it gets !”, but eventually I found a 3rd party aircraft I could love and became a happy simmer.

To curve or not to curve! For the record, I use curves myself and there is nothing wrong with them for small adjustments. They are useful. My point all along is not that curves are evil or intrinsically bad. What I said was that relying on extreme amounts of exponential curves in order to tone down something might reveal deeper problems than the curves themselves. If you have to set a -70% sensitivity on the average controller, it is likely that it is covering up a problem outside of the controller - not always but often.

One poster fairly states that even on mechanical linkages the result is not often linear in practise. To me that is even more reason to avoid if possible adding to the problem. If you set extremely low sensitivity on the first third of movement, then the second and subsequent thirds of movement are going to exponentially increase in sensitivity, not decrease. So while curves are very useful, if you need a very steep one then it is likely the solution is covering up something else. But no-one is stopping anyone else doing whatever they like. It's not compulsory. There are no thought police spying on your controller setups!

 

Edited August 21, 20205 yr by robert young

15 minutes ago, smurfboard said:

This reminds me of when FS9 came out, the default aircraft flight models were unbelievably terrible, or as Microsoft put it “As real as it gets !”, but eventually I found a 3rd party aircraft I could love and became a happy simmer.

We made this monster ourselves by demanding and feeding the 3rd party industry. Now everyone is made that a sim was built to allow said industry to flourish hahaha