Especially EU and Asian approach plates are so confusing. It looks like they have no standard

I am looking for the ILS frequency, IMO the most important item that should be on Top like in Jeppesen plates.  and I can't find it. I have to search for it all over the place.. It should be right on top.

https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2019-12-05-AIRAC/graphics/100905.pdf

111.35 with ident I-ND? 

13 minutes ago, DavidP said:

111.35 with ident I-ND? 

Thats what I thought, It say its out of range in the B787

It's within the range

108.10 to 111.95 MHz

 

The localizer transmitter operates on one of 40 ILS channels within the frequency range of 108.10 to 111.95 MHz. Signals provide the pilot with course guidance to the runway centerline.

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by Manny

Maybe it's a problem with the sim, not the plate? I haven't touched MSFS since it came out but it seems plenty complain about it's flawed IFR capability.

35 minutes ago, DavidP said:

Maybe it's a problem with the sim, not the plate? I haven't touched MSFS since it came out but it seems plenty complain about it's flawed IFR capability.

My point about non Jeppesen still holds. LOL 🙂 Why would they not put the frequency next to the crs (ILS 23 crs is 234, Frequency = 111.35, landing tdze = 65feet AGL. etc etc. Look at a Jeppesen plate from anywhere... They are identical no matter where in the world. if you understand one plate, you pretty much know where things are. The biggest offender are Indian Airports. Sheesh they are like hand made.. It's like someone took a napkin and drew an approach plate. 🙂

How To Brief A Jeppesen Approach Chart, In 11 Steps

 

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by Manny

The plate you're looking at is not an Indian airport plate. It's not even from an Indian plate producer. Do you have educational difficulties?

1 minute ago, Manny said:

My point about non Jeppesen still holds. LOL 🙂 Why would they not put the frequency next to the crs (ILS 23 crs is 234, Frequency = 111.35, landing tdze = 65feet AGL. etc etc. Look at a Jeppesen plate from anywhere... They are identical no matter where in the world. if you understand one plate, you pretty much know where things are. The biggest offender in Indian Airports. Sheesh they are like hand made.. It's like some took a napkin and drew an approach plate. 🙂

I'm an IFR instructor in real life. To my knowledge (and I may be wrong) there seems to be no standard layout. I know people who like Jepp, I know others who don't. Personally, I like them. In my country, our air services produce a format that is different to Jepp again.

I guess everyone's mileage varies and you have to roll with the punches.

2 minutes ago, lambourne said:

The plate you're looking at is not an Indian airport plate. It's not even from an Indian plate producer. Do you have educational difficulties?

Its UK charts, other European countries non Jeppesen's are not any better.  Indian charts are even worse I said. Sheesh! 

INTRODUCTION TO JEPPESEN NAVIGATION CHARTS

OK. Can someone here point me to Introduction to any other "standard" chart as an alternative to Jeppesen. The US has one. The govt published charts and they have some standards too. I prefer Jeppesen to it. I have no complaints about non Jeppesen US charts. They are are a lot cheaper and they have standards. US charts are freely available too. US is awesome! 🙂

Its European countries I have a beef with. If its not Jeppesen, they are non standard. Specific airliners produce their own charts, like Lufthansa I believe. Imagine each country have their own standardization, like India doing their own thing. Without Jeppesen, you are screwed I think. 🙂

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by Manny

Respectfully Manny, whilst I too am used to Jepp... LIDO and several other AIS services do produce very easily understood charts.

A thorough self-brief prior to the walk around will usually sort out most issues.

C

1 hour ago, Manny said:

Especially EU and Asian approach plates are so confusing. It looks like they have no standard

I am looking for the ILS frequency, IMO the most important item that should be on Top like in Jeppesen plates.  and I can't find it. I have to search for it all over the place.. It should be right on top.

https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2019-12-05-AIRAC/graphics/100905.pdf

Hi Manny,

They have a standard, it's just a different standard.  Perhaps a little explanation is needed.  

States publish aeronautical information normally in their Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP), as required of a signatory to the ICAO Chicago Convention.  They can publish it directly in the AIP or in another source referenced in the AIP.  In the US, the instrument approach information is published on the FAA 8260-3 Form.  Here's an example of one for the KICT ILS or LOC Rwy 1L:

KS_WICHITA_IL01L_ICT.pdf (faa.gov)

Legally, you could fly an approach with this form, but it would not be a lot of fun.  In the US,  AJV-A AeroNav Office is the charting arm of the FAA.  In cooperation with the DoD and NGA, they develop cartographic standards for taking the information from the 8260-3 Form and publishing a graphic depiction in a format usable for pilots:

https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/dtpp/2014/00987IL1L.PDF#nameddest=(ICT)

In State AIPs, similar information is also published, either textually like the FAA form, or on a State derived chart format that their governing body deems suitable for pilot use.  In addition, ICAO does have some "Standards & Recommended Practices" or SARPs that provide signatory States guidance on how procedures should be depicted on charts, but that is only guidance.  States can, and often do, publish exceptions to these SARPs in their AIP. 

Third party, commercial charting providers such as Jeppesen and LIDO are commercial entities, and they are pretty much free to do what they want when it comes to charting as long as they chart whatever is required to be charted in the official "source document", e.g. FAA 8260-3 Form.  Now, if they want pilots and operators to use their charts, they have listen to their customers and in many instances abide by the State regulatory authorities that oversee these operators (i.e., the airlines).  The value-add feature for companies like Jeppesen and LIDO is that they take the disparate forms and depictions provided in State sources from around the world and then publish them in a consistent, standardized chart format.  An approach chart for a US airport looks pretty much the same as one in Europe, Asia, or Africa.  There are some difference own more to how individual States do some things, but by and large, since approaches are generally developed in accordance with either US TERPS or ICAO PANS-OPS criteria, the depiction on the chart for all IAPs, SIDs, and STARs can be made largely consistent.  They also make adjustments for things like "OCA" and "OCH" and republish them as DA(H) or MDA(H) that have better meaning for the pilots who use them. 

All this comes at a cost.  Jeppesen and LIDO are commercial products.  The chart example you provided was a State chart, I believe from the UK. The UK aviation authorities believe that the chart is fine and dandy for UK users.  To get the worldwide consistency of chart depictions, you need to have a commercial charting provider that does all this work.  For 80 years, that provider has been Jeppesen, and for about the first 20 years, it was all done out of Captain's Jepp's basement! 

I know we don't like to spend money, but a Navigraph Jeppesen chart subscription is well worth it. 

I hope you found this helpful.

Rich Boll

 

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by richjb2

23 minutes ago, Manny said:

other European countries non Jeppesen's are not any better

I have to disagree strongly, take a look at the french charts for an ILS approach, what's wrong with them?

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dvd/eAIP_31_DEC_2020/FRANCE/AIRAC-2020-12-31/html/eAIP/Cartes/LFKB/AD%202%20LFKB%20IAC%20RWY34%20-ILS%20Z%20LOC%20Z.pdf

 

And it's free

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by bendead

12 minutes ago, bendead said:

I have to disagree strongly, take a look at the french charts for an ILS approach, what's wrong with them?

https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dvd/eAIP_31_DEC_2020/FRANCE/AIRAC-2020-12-31/html/eAIP/Cartes/LFKB/AD%202%20LFKB%20IAC%20RWY34%20-ILS%20Z%20LOC%20Z.pdf

 

And it's free

That looks reasonable and quite similar to the US govt published ILS chart. It even has the ILS frequency (My biggest pet peeve) is also on the top strip along with comm frequency.

My complain was why is UK govt chart different? Why does the UK chart not put the ILS frequency on the top strip. Its as important as comm frequency, if not more. 

My point was there is inconsistency between/among countrie and like Rich Boil  stated, for that we need to go commercial. 

when I was doing IFR in Texas for the first year I subscribed to Jeppesen and then it got expensive  and so I reverted to US Govt chart. There are gazillion rwy/Airports for Texas alone. I can sub for just a state.

I fly Internationally only on the sim and Ifly to all and any country that has good payware airport. Ha Ha! and I get annoyed with reading and interpreting different approach plates/standards. hence my original post complain. Nothing serious. LOL 🙂

Edited January 14, 20215 yr by Manny

27 minutes ago, Manny said:

I get annoyed with reading and interpreting different approach plates/standards

I do sympathise and agree. It is strange how different providers always think that their presentation is the best 😀

Hopefully this will link / show up appropriately.  - the Jeppesen version of the EGMC NDB ILS DME Rwy 23 approach and does show the frequency as 111.35 MHz but has an asterisk.  Jepp plates adhere to the 'part time' asterisk rule so possibly everyone had gone to lunch or were home for the day.

EGMC NDB ILS DME Rwy 23 Jeppesen Chart

A better approach plate than (for US taxpayers) the 'Your Tax Dollars at Work' version that our US Air Force pilots had to use  - "Fly the Napkin"

 

Edited January 15, 20215 yr by TXHills