Thoughts about MSFS and RL training/currency

[MarioDonick 752]

14 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

However, the magic is in usage not in the name! I have no doubt people with real life flying experience can take full advantage of MSFS and accept its limitations while compensating  with "still doing things right"

Exactly. You can learn a lot even with flight simulation games (I also prefer that term sometimes to avoid confusion with certified flight simulators or training devices, although I know that in combination with certain hardware setups they can be certified for some uses, too).

In all the debates I wonder how people are in fact using the sims/games. For example, when doing VFR flights (which is often neglected in statements like "MSFS is just suitable for VFR"), are people planning with ICAO charts, calculating fuel, drawing wind triangles, respecting airplane performance tables (well, if the simulated plane is precise enough for that...), flying VOR radials and airways in the correct way, respect the semicircular rule, fly traffic patterns at correct altitudes or directions, and so on.

In a few weeks, an article I wrote for the Air Facts Journal website will be published in which I talk about my own experience in in regard, esp. how simming helped me during the COVID-related delays in my own flight training, when I was not able to fly for months (either due to lockdowns or due to not having enough funds).

Edited June 2, 2021 by MarioDonick

[dbw1 445]

These sims are great for a learning and maintaining currency perspective. Having said that I realize we are all entitled to different opinions. I stated my flying career in the mid 1970s retiring 5 years ago. Unlike killthespam I was mainly a blue collar pilot except for 5 years with a regional, many years ago, on the HS748 & SF340. I did rotary wing from 78 to 95 when I switched to fixed wing exclusively. Kept both commercial licenses up till I upgraded the commercial fixed wing to an ATPL (I was past 40 then).

In the late 1980s I came into a little extra cash and decided to add a multi/IFR to the fixed wing license. I used the Microsoft flight sim of the day to prepare and I can honestly say that the skill I developed from that primitive flight sim saved me the cost of the computer. Keep in mind this was before the days of gps and fancy nav equipment. Different world.

Fast forward to just after 2000 i spent 10 years doing forest fire suppression for a a government agency on the Cessna 310 birddog and the Canadair CL215 water bomber. Round engine sound is music. 6 months of 7 days a week of mainly vfr. Interesting challenging flying. Then 6 months off over the winter. Come back in the spring, get a few hours training then have to go out and do an IFR renewal and PPC combined. Lucky for me I enjoyed flight sims and had been "playing " with them since the commodore 64 days so going out in the spring and doing the IFR was much less of a problem for me that more than a few of my coworkers. Some had a real challenge getting up to speed again. Anyway, a couple of the guys saw what I was doing and got sim set ups for themselves and for them it worked well.....20 years ago there were a lot of older guys in fire suppression in their 50s & 60s, all piston time, little  IFR time except the rating and a few IFR hours, IFR recurrent training, and IFR check rides. 

After the the forest fire suppression work I ended up still with the government office bound 90% of the time, flying the remaining 10% in a king air 90 with the older analogue cockpit about 100 hours a year including annual level c/d sim. They upgraded it to a Garmin 1000 so I picked up an addon king air with the G1000, somewhat primitive as it was, and got used to it so when the time for in aircraft training on it came it was much easier  as I was familiar with it. I found the pc sim time really helpful over the years.

These sims can be really valuable in the real world. You have to decide what you want to accomplish with it (in addition to having fun). IMHO.

 

[Bobsk8 12,730]

I truly believe that sims like MSFS help someone be a better pilot. Let's face it, just flying an aircraft, really isn't that difficult. The average beginner solos in what, about 12-14 hours of dual, and then he or she are on their own basically. I think that most of the learning after that is in navigation, judgement, precision, etc, and much of that can be practiced in a simulator. Especially with the cost of renting an aircraft today, sometimes hundreds of dollars an hour, you can save a fortune by practicing things on a home  sim for next to nothing. 

[SAS443 1,723]

22 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

Sorry for OT, but that cockpit isn't bad at all!  I think I spot a:
Garmin G5 PFD (they are really nice IMO)
Avidyne 440 GPS 
TKM MX 170C(?) radiostack  (Boo these units, and that idiotic "N-C" pushbutton)
Bendix KT74 XPNDR

 

 

 

[FakeWayne 84]

This post and many of the replies are extremely satisfying to see for someone like me who has high hopes of getting a PPL in the near future.  I've dabbled in flight sims since I was a kid thanks to my father who has used them as long as I can remember.  When MSFS released I just dove head first into it and have learned such an incredible amount (I think) over the last year or so.

I told myself once COVID slowed and the weather got nice, I'd go for my introductory flight...and here we are.  I plan on doing that in the next month or so.  I think I'll probably be on the older side of the age people usually get their PPL.  I'm 34, but whatever...I can't wait.  The best part is I've also put the itch back into my father to get current...he has his instrument rating, but he hasn't flown in almost 15 years.  He's been back flying P3D on his Redbird for a couple months now too.  I'm so excited to do this with him.

[LRBS 948]

I agree with @dbw1 and @Bobsk8, but the main issue I have with MS2020 (at the present moment) is that many airplanes behave unrealistic and puts unnecessary stress to a person that is learning how to fly more so on initial IFR training. Usually, aircraft trainers are docile, stable, forgiving and easy to fly during the initial. You don't want to put a student in a high performance or unstable aircraft to learn the basics and to be distracted by any unnecessary events. Learning should be pleasant without any stress.

The more I look into this MS2020 I see many posts that indicate issues with flight dynamics and many mods that try to alleviate those issues, some are free and some require to be purchased.

So, for that reason this issue cannot be ignored or to be believed that is OK, me personally I would steer away someone that is looking for a PC "flight simulator" to start "training" or learn to get the basics to a more mature and stable platform or to a better designed aircraft.

A few hours ago, I did a test flight with the 172 steam gauges it took me a long time to adjust my flight controls and I was somehow satisfied with the yoke but, there is something wrong with the way the rudder is acting up. Initially I sought that there is an issue with my rudder pedals despite the fact that P3D, XP11 and DCS works flawless. Anyway, I went to the store and got a brand-new Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals and cheeked against my TPR pedals thinking that was something wrong with my controls.

Unfortunately, didn't fix the problem, same issue on the ground, as soon as I was in the air they work very well.

In my opinion and with @sd_flyer statement I strongly believe that there is something wrong related to the ground friction and interaction between the rudder pedals and the nose or tail steering and aircraft reaction to the wind.

I tired the FSUPIC interface, adjusted some entries in the aircraft config but I'm afraid that is something wrong related with the coding.

[sd_flyer 6,042]

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

Sorry for OT, but that cockpit isn't bad at all!  I think I spot a:
Garmin G5 PFD (they are really nice IMO)
Avidyne 440 GPS 
TKM MX 170C(?) radiostack  (Boo these units, and that idiotic "N-C" pushbutton)
Bendix KT74 XPNDR

 

 

 

You got it. Yes crappy after market TKM... Have been broken numerous times. I have two units when one breaks another slides in. And of course broken one shipped to Arizona for repairs LOL

[sd_flyer 6,042]

25 minutes ago, killthespam said:

I agree with @dbw1 and @Bobsk8, but the main issue I have with MS2020 (at the present moment) is that many airplanes behave unrealistic and puts unnecessary stress to a person that is learning how to fly more so on initial IFR training. Usually, aircraft trainers are docile, stable, forgiving and easy to fly during the initial. You don't want to put a student in a high performance or unstable aircraft to learn the basics and to be distracted by any unnecessary events. Learning should be pleasant without any stress.

The more I look into this MS2020 I see many posts that indicate issues with flight dynamics and many mods that try to alleviate those issues, some are free and some require to be purchased.

So, for that reason this issue cannot be ignored or to be believed that is OK, me personally I would steer away someone that is looking for a PC "flight simulator" to start "training" or learn to get the basics to a more mature and stable platform or to a better designed aircraft.

A few hours ago, I did a test flight with the 172 steam gauges it took me a long time to adjust my flight controls and I was somehow satisfied with the yoke but, there is something wrong with the way the rudder is acting up. Initially I sought that there is an issue with my rudder pedals despite the fact that P3D, XP11 and DCS works flawless. Anyway, I went to the store and got a brand-new Saitek Pro Flight rudder pedals and cheeked against my TPR pedals thinking that was something wrong with my controls.

Unfortunately, didn't fix the problem, same issue on the ground, as soon as I was in the air they work very well.

In my opinion and with @sd_flyer statement I strongly believe that there is something wrong related to the ground friction and interaction between the rudder pedals and the nose or tail steering and aircraft reaction to the wind.

I tired the FSUPIC interface, adjusted some entries in the aircraft config but I'm afraid that is something wrong related with the coding.

You may remember early in days Asobo had "sticky" airplanes and it was very hard to get airplane in a motion during taxi. Consequently they tweaked (back in September October last year?). But frankly in my experience taxing  airplane is closer to Asobo initial version! Right now I can  taxi 172 with power on idle, it's not how it is in real life!

[LRBS 948]

19 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

Right now I can  taxi 172 with power on idle, it's not how it is in real life!

I noticed that, I think that 172 is quite good. But again I'm not familiar/used to the small ones anymore and I could be wrong (not the first or last time). Thou I remember the 182 to be a pleasure to fly.

[Snuffleupagus 327]

1 hour ago, killthespam said:

I agree with @dbw1 and @Bobsk8, but the main issue I have with MS2020 (at the present moment) is that many airplanes behave unrealistic and puts unnecessary stress to a person that is learning how to fly more so on initial IFR training. Usually, aircraft trainers are docile, stable, forgiving and easy to fly during the initial. You don't want to put a student in a high performance or unstable aircraft to learn the basics and to be distracted by any unnecessary events. Learning should be pleasant without any stress.

I seem to keep using the x cub backcountry. It seems to handle to most realistic, at least on my setup. 

[regis9 4,014]

Thanks for the post, it’s really interesting to hear your perspective on this.

I fly for fun in MSFS, but in my situation it’s closest I’ll ever come to attaining a pilot’s license so I make the most of it and it’s been my main indoor hobby for a long time.

I do recall years ago I did an introductory flight lesson out of a local club that no longer exists and before the flight the instructor asked if I had ever flown before.  I responded no, but I play more Microsoft flight simulator than is probably normal for your average person.  His response was that my time with flight sim would actually translate well into the basic stuff we’d be doing that day.  

Winds were calm that day, once lined up, he partially let me take off.  He was operating the power controls and kept us lined up with the centreline but he let me handle the yoke for takeoff.  What a thrill to actually lift off in a real airplane.  We did some flying around, me operating the yoke the whole time.  He commented that my ability was really good even compared to some of his students.

Eventually it was time to head back to the airport.  He took over once it was time to get in the pattern, but once we were lined up on final he again gave me the yoke (he maintained the rudder and throttle control) and guided me Into a landing.  I still remember how much more I had to pull back on the yoke than I was used to in the simulator.

This was about 20 years ago but I’ll always remember the one day I actually got to be at the controls of a real airplane, and that my time spent in flight simulator helped me do it.

Edited June 2, 2021 by regis9

[Bobsk8 12,730]

1 hour ago, killthespam said:

I agree with @dbw1 and @Bobsk8, but the main issue I have with MS2020 (at the present moment) is that many airplanes behave unrealistic and puts unnecessary stress to a person that is learning how to fly more so on initial IFR training. Usually, aircraft trainers are docile, stable, forgiving and easy to fly during the initial. You don't want to put a student in a high performance or unstable aircraft to learn the basics and to be distracted by any unnecessary events. Learning should be pleasant without any stress.

The more I look into this MS2020 I see many posts that indicate issues with flight dynamics and many mods that try to alleviate those issues, some are free and some require to be purchased.

 

Simple, look at the aircraft that experienced pilots using MSFS 2020 are flying, and that will be the best aircraft to approach realistic flight. You will see these aircraft mentioned over and over again.  The Mooney, the JF Arrow 3,  and the Steam Gauge Cessna are probably a good place to start. I also like the Seminole. 

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:51 AM, kand said:

I wish MSFS was around when I did my PPL! I had a tough time learning how to fly by reference to the ground, I was so used to flying PC sims and had time in 777 level D's that I was probably too advanced for the PPL stage. I had to park a lot of the stuff I had used for navigating and learn to read the ground/chart and I struggled for some time with this part. FS2000 taught me bad habits, like staring at the gauges but my FI soon drummed that out of me lol. 

I think sims are a great learning tool for aviation provided the learning path is managed  

 

I picked up quite a few bad habits from FS9 that were detrimental when going for my PPL as well. Other people have found the opposite and found it a bonus.

MSFS may be better in that regard for novice pilots due to the more realistic visuals -  but overall, regardless of the sim,  I think too much unsupervised sim time can be detrimental in early training.

[MarioDonick 752]

Here  is my take on using flight sims for not forgetting everything when you can't fly in reality for a longer time:

https://airfactsjournal.com/2021/06/desktop-flight-simulation-and-covid-how-it-helps-how-it-hinders/

(I wrote that before this thread started, and it is published now. It fits the topic quite well.)

[eslader 1,783]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:55 PM, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

I think too much unsupervised sim time can be detrimental in early training.

I think that'll boil down to the attitude of the student. If he goes into PPL training with the idea that he's been fooling around in flight sims without learning about how to do things in real life, but he's been flying under bridges and once managed to land the Learjet on an aircraft carrier and therefore he's already Maverick and doesn't even need the CFI, yeah, things won't go well for him.

But I played racing video games as a kid, and that didn't hurt me at all when I went to get my driver's license because I recognized that nothing I'd been doing in Need for Speed applied to driving real cars on real streets.

There are lots of resources out there, especially now, that are available to help you learn how flying is done in real life. It's up to you whether you adhere to real life procedures or not in the sim, but if you do, I think it'd be helpful at least in some aspects when you transitioned to real airplanes.