An avoidable tragedy...

[eldar2112 10]

And does anybody here remember Jon-Erik Hexum? He didn't realize that blanks still fire the wadding/plug. During filming of the show Cover UP in the mid-80's he put the gun loaded with blanks to his head and pulled the trigger. A case that demonstrates the need for solid education for anyone handling a firearm for any reason. If some sort of safety course for the cast and crew were provided, we might still be seeing him in TV shows and movies. Another terrible, tragic accident that was completely avoidable.

Education is the key to the use of anything that can cause harm - from a gun to a bulldozer and anything between or beyond.

[birdguy 3,943]

40 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Baldwin is an actor following the directors direction, he is not responsible for determining if a blank is really a blank nor safety on set.

I have to disagree with this.  While it may SOP for the way things are done on a movie set the final responsibility for determining the safety of a weapon always rests with the shooter; the person whose finger is on the trigger.  I would never take a gun handed to me and not check the load before firing it no matter what the situation was.

Much like the responsibility for pre-flighting an aircraft is the pilot or copilot; the ones whose hands are on the yoke and throttle.  

When I was in engineering we had process when something went wrong.

Is there a procedure?

Is the procedure correct?

Was the procedure followed?

If the procedure on the set is to hand a gun to an actor and say fire it without the shooter checking it first it should be changed.  

Noel

 

 

 

[Patco Lch 1,465]

A little off subject here or maybe not but Baldwin is not my idea of a stable person in light of temper tantrums and public tirades he's been known to throw in the past. Cursing and physically threatening reporters and fans alike who got in his way. Refusing to turn his lap top off when told to do so on a plane. A recording somehow went viral years ago of him cursing and belittling his own teenage daughter.  Definitely sufferer of spoiled celebrity syndrome. He is a professional actor by the way but of course his contrition is most likely real after such a terrible thing.  I'm just saying I believe people with certain self centered mind sets may be a little more accident prone then someone who is more emotionally level headed.   

[Fielder 3,680]

In battle reenactments (such as the American Civil War), lines of up to a 100 are firing continuously at the enemy lines who are firing back. The guns are loaded with blanks. No lead bullets, only paper and powder are in the paper blank cartridge. 100s of rounds fired every minute.

At a distance, nobody is going to ever get killed by a paper patched blank. I think either the injured were too close or the ammo was not blanks. It's pretty hard to check everybody on the set for live ammo in their pockets. Hordes are wandering on and off the set continuously.

In the old days always, and even today often, 5 in 1 blanks were used in all cinema guns. Called 5 in 1 because that one standard blank fit into five different calibers of guns, both rifles and pistols. Shotguns were also modified to use them.

There was only one box of ammo on a movie set into which all actors would dip to load their guns. That ammo was studio owned 5 in 1 made by the Western S P company which has made these same blanks for over 60 years. They look like this and are also sold to the general public online.

[Ron Attwood 3,465]

27 minutes ago, Patco Lch said:

A little off subject here or maybe not but Baldwin is not my idea of a stable person in light of temper tantrums and public tirades he's been known to throw in the past. Cursing and physically threatening reporters and fans alike who got in his way. Refusing to turn his lap top off when told to do so on a plane. A recording somehow went viral years ago of him cursing and belittling his own teenage daughter.  Definitely sufferer of spoiled celebrity syndrome. He is a professional actor by the way but of course his contrition is most likely real after such a terrible thing.  I'm just saying I believe people with certain self centered mind sets may be a little more accident prone then someone who is more emotionally level headed.   

What are you inferring? That because he has a temper he's just the type to have shot a colleague dead? That's how lynch mobs start.

[Patco Lch 1,465]

39 minutes ago, Ron Attwood said:

What are you inferring? That because he has a temper he's just the type to have shot a colleague dead? That's how lynch mobs start.

No Ron.  Just that someone with a super sized ego may not again I say may not be very conscientious of the safety of others but who knows. 

Ref lynch mobs, I do watch a lot of gun smoke reruns.

[Bert Pieke 7,585]

11 hours ago, charliearon said:

Was reading the story this morning.  The gun WAS loaded with blanks.  The rule is that no one should be within 20 feet when it is fired.  Blanks supposedly have a wax plug holding the gunpowder in place and that may have been the projectile.  Same thing happened many years ago to Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's son) on a movie set.  Killed by a blank round.

As I understand it, in Brandon Lee's case there was an actual bullet stuck in the gun, which was subsequently fired by a blank cartridge that was loaded behind it..

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/d-a-announces-negligence-caused-brandon-lees-death

Edited October 22, 2021 by Bert Pieke

[lownslo 592]

2 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Baldwin is an actor following the directors direction, he is not responsible for determining if a blank is really a blank nor safety on set.

I share the position that whomever handles any firearm is responsible for what happens with that firearm.  Now, Baldwin may not be found criminally liable, but he will be held civilly responsible.  Because it is his production company that is making the film.  Ultimately, he is responsible for the crew hiring... including the cinematographer, director, and yes the Armorer too, as well as anything that occurs on the set.

If what you say is true, that the scene was a shot facing the camera, then it could be that the blank charge still brought enough pressure to the lens to turn its internals into deadly projectiles.  We'll learn more from the investigation, but thoughts are with the victims and their families/friends.  This indeed was an avoidable tragedy.

[G550flyer 1,014]

I will look at this from a flying and military perspective. I know everyone wants to place blame on someone. The question is "Was said actor properly trained and qualified to handle said firearm/prop". In the military, the fire arms instructors were responsible to ensuring the fire arms are safe before handing them to trainees. Once trained, you and the person exchanging the fire arm both ensured the fire arm was safe. You exchanged it on a flat surface. Those fire arms instructors were responsible to ensure that the weapons and the trainees were safe. Even when trained and during yearly re qualification, those instructors(red hats) were watching you as you fired and handled the weapon. Now lets look at the flying world. In civilian and military flying, I as the instructor was always responsible to ensure my students did not bend metal, hurt themselves or hurt anyone else. If that student was unqualified to do what ever it is we are doing, I as the IP is responsible. If we put a wheel in the dirt, go off the runway, stress the jet, run out of gas or over speed something, I am responsible. Just like those red hats, I am to watch closely and take the jet once my comfort level is pushed. In incidents with students involved, they were never at fault, the instructor took the hit. In that shooting incident, that is the question I would ask. That's one thing I loved about the military environment, they made sure you were properly trained and qualified before they hang you out to dry. You can't do no wrong until there's documentation that you were properly trained and qualified.    

[Fielder 3,680]

... Oh, I amolst forgot, just one more technical question before I go, Mr. Baldwin...

 

[Patco Lch 1,465]

Now I hear some set crew members had walked off the set prior the accident because of safety concerns. 

[Chock 17,769]

To be perfectly honest, there's really hardly any reason to have a real firearm on a movie set these days, you can CGI things pretty easily for most footage, and anything where that can't be done convincingly should be greenscreened on a range under properly controlled conditions. You would have thought the several accidents with real guns over the years on film sets would have taught people that one by now.

If any director thinks you can't do pretty convincing gunfire with CGI these days and why it's a good idea from a safety standpoint they need to understand that this is one of the significant benefits of CGI; this is the result of the one hour-long tutorial I used to teach people how to do this on my After Effects training courses over ten years ago. Things are way more sophisticated than that these days, so whilst that clip is not super convincing because it was more about teaching the concept in a hour of the course's material rather than making something Oscar-worthy and it was done over a decade ago, it is reasonably okay for something with literally zero budget; featuring fake muzzle flashes lighting up the wall and my shirt, CG shell cases I matted into the shot ejecting etc. That's with a completely inert plastic AK-47 which I painted up to look like the real thing; you couldn't even kill someone with that thing if you smashed it over their head.

And even if you don't want to CGI a gun and do want to use a real one, you can matte two bits of footage together easily to ensure that when the gun is fired with a blank, it's not pointing at anyone. This is really easy to do in a world where even forty years ago, film-makers were able to make it look like TIE fighters and X-Wings were dogfighting one another in space with no CGI at all. It's totally irresponsible to do anything other than make use of CGI, and if as a film-maker, you insist on using a real weapon, frankly, they should prosecute the production designers for this incident so that it makes these safer methodologies something that has some teeth from a legal standpoint going forwards. These people are morons for having allowed this to occur.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Chock

[W2DR 1,860]

4 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

 

 The weapon used is "period" was authentic from 1880's (which might be a contribution factor).  

 

Keep in mind also that it MUCH harder to accidentally discharge a double-action revolver and, being vintage 1880's, it's almost certain that this revolver was double action. 

[Fielder 3,680]

No live ammo should ever be on any movie set for a Western movie like this one which is set in the 1880s, there is absolutely no need for it using those old technology guns.  Live ammo is for killing. Or possibly for working the action of a semiautomatic. But blanks work the action and fire perfectly fine in revolvers, lever action rifles, or double barrel shotguns. Live ammo serves no purpose at all in making  movies about the 19th century.

No blank ammo, such as the normal movie ammo provided By Western Stage Props company, is going to kill anyone 5 yards (meters) away or more. It is impossible. Trained or untrained, shooting such blanks cannot kill somebody who is not extremely close.

[W2DR 1,860]

23 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

That is a rather harsh judgment in my opinion. Last time I checked, Alec Baldwin was an actor, not a firearms expert. The question is.....did a firearms expert check the weapon first?

It doesn't matter who "checked" the weapon first. All the reports this morning is that there was a live round fired and that Baldwin was told that the weapon was "cold". It was Baldwin's responsibility to ascertain the state of the weapon no matter what someone may have told him beforehand. The ultimate fault lies with Baldwin. Period. End of discussion!