41 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Gun requires expertise for prop usage (Armorer)

Armorer AND the guy with the finger on the trigger.  He/she has to know how to hold it.  Has to know how to aim it.  Has to know how to squeeze the trigger.  Has to know how to check if the gun is loaded.  Has to know how to verify the proper type of ammunition is being used.

That's called expertise.

It  it only takes a minute fraction of the time to rain a person in gun safety than to train a person how to inspect a braking system.  

BTW, the critical part, the trigger finger, was not found 100 ft behind Baldwin.   It was still attached.

Why is it so hard top understand the person who does the shooting is the most responsible person.  That person is final link of the chain  of responsibility.

Now let me ask you a simple question.  Which of the following is easier to fo:

1 - Inspect the braking system of your car?

 2 -Check to see if a gun is properly loaded?

Noel

Edited October 25, 20214 yr by birdguy

18 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Why is it so hard top understand the person who does the shooting is the most responsible person.

Because, according to your Australian reference, the armorer is supposed to hand the gun directly to the actor and demonstrate to the satisfaction of the actor, that it is safe to use.

Is the rule different in the USA?

It seems to me that the whole purpose of that procedure is to keep the responsibility with the licensed professional, i.e., the armorer. That might be a requirement of the insurance company.

 

"

Armorer AND the guy with the finger on the trigger.  He/she has to know how to hold it.  Has to know how to aim it.  Has to know how to squeeze the trigger.  Has to know how to check if the gun is loaded.  Has to know how to verify the proper type of ammunition is being used.

That's called expertise.

It  it only takes a minute fraction of the time to rain a person in gun safety than to train a person how to inspect a braking system.  

BTW, the critical part, the trigger finger, was not found 100 ft behind Baldwin.   It was still attached.

Why is it so hard top understand the person who does the shooting is the most responsible person.  That person is final link of the chain  of responsibility.

Now let me ask you a simple question.  Which of the following is easier to fo:

1 - Inspect the braking system of your car?

 2 -Check to see if a gun is properly loaded?

Noel"

 

Umm, either one. The braking system does take a little longer, but it's not rocket science either. That's what the Mark One eyeball is for.

 Of course, this is the opinion of a smart a&& retired mechanic...

 Sue

Edited October 25, 20214 yr by Penzoil3

5 hours ago, dmwalker said:

Why should the prop master or assistant director be involved in the handover? Where was the armorer in this case?

An inexperienced armorer on only her second movie, who said herself she wasn't sure she was ready for the one before this. Every production is different, every crew is different, and every director and actor is different. It is a huge mistake to think there are not profane screaming matches, petty humiliations, power trips, jealousies, pressures of every type including schedules and money, clashes of titanic egos that happen more often than you'd imagine. Making films has always been an exercise in calculated chaos. The AD reportedly yelling "cold gun," is an odd detail. Was the armorer intimidated? Sheer speculation at this point like most of everything else. Does anyone know how it would be taken if an actor made it a point to double-check a weapon cleared by the people responsible every time he picked it up? I honestly don't but every industry has its ways of getting through the day. It was obviously not a healthy environment, but those have probably been the exception in the history of movie making.

The only reason I can think of for a live round being around (aside from foul play, which I'm not claiming) is that at some point somebody decided it would be a good idea to go shoot some live rounds for whatever reason. Don't know. But I bet before this over, it will be more than the armorer who finds it hard getting work, and I'm not talking about Mr. Baldwin. It just doesn't sound like a healthy production. (Or let's say it sounds more unhealthy than most.)

This isn't for anyone who has already decided this is simply a violation of basic gun safety rules. We can agree to dsagree on that. This is for others who wondering why a industry safety rules that have produced a safety record that the aviation industry can only envy failed in this production. I doubt it's going to be any one person's fault.

50 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Is the rule different in the USA?

The rule is universal Dugald.  When you have in your hand the potential to kill or maim someone the onus is on YOU to verify the gun is safe.  Depending on others in a life or death situation where the you are the potential instrument of death puts the onus on you to make sure the gun is safe.  I certainly wouldn't trust the word of anyone no matter how professional they were that a gun handed to me wasn't loaded.  I would check it myself.  A gun is too lethal a killing machine to trust the words "It isn't loaded."  Too many people have been killed with unloaded guns.  In fact that's what started this thread.

I'll be Baldwin is asking himself 100 time a day now, "Why didn't I check the gun?"

Anyone familiar with firearms, and anyone expected to discharge a firearm in the direction of another person, should not be willing to trust what someone else says.  Mistakes can be made.  Make sure you're not the one who makes the mistake.  Nobody in the chain of event is from the armorer to the shooter is going to feel more badly about killing someone than the shooter who did the killing.

And tragedy of it all is that is such a simple thing to to.

I keep a Glock in a drawer under my bed.  It has a full magazine of 13 rounds of 9mm ammunition but nothing in the chamber.  Even though there is nobody in the house besides my wife and I, I periodically take the gun from the drawer, remove the magazine, and verify no bullet has been chambered.  It only takes a minute.

When I bought the Glock I took my wife out the range and showed her how it worked, how to load it and how to fire it.  And she fired a half box of ammunition at a target.  And when we got home she cleaned the gun.

I am somewhat hyper about gun safety.  When my daughters came to here to visit for a week-end or a week and my grandkids were toddlers I took no chances.  I took my two handguns to the police station for safekeeping until they went back home.

Noel

From the many reports, it is more or less that on that set 'clear' or 'cold' vs. 'hot' means entirely unloaded, nothing at all in the cylinder's chambers, i.e. not loaded with blanks, nor with any kind of ammo at all.

A real ammo round is a brass case full of powder with a lead bullet crimped onto the front and a primer crimped into the back. A blank is identical except without the lead bullet on the front, instead the brass case is crimped on its nose to hold the power in .

Someone can get careless enough to not look close enough at the front of a cylinder to distinguish between a bullet protruding there or just a crimp. But 'clear' means just empty space there, you can see right thru the empty chamber.

So looks like double error. 1) The armorer foolishly with real ammo in his pocket which later got mixed up with blanks. And then also 2) a pistol's cylinder with supposedly six completely empty chambers that you can see thru, has chamber(s) with something in them.

 

I am so glad that I live in a country where I do not feel that I have to keep a gun in my house.

Good luck to you all with your survival plans.

I live in America where for instance in Chicago, there averages 3500 shootings at other people in that city every year, about 60 shootings a week.

And nationwide counting the number of residential burglaries compared to the number of total residences, every person will on average have their residence intruded upon 3 times during their lifespan. The bad guys will almost surely be coming to a rooms where we live, more than once in my life.

Seconds count when protecting a family's life and property, but the police take an average 25 minutes to respond to a call.

Crime rates are lower in my smaller town, but I would have trouble getting to sleep without my simplex lock boxed pistol only 4 seconds away, right besides my bed. I can't even imagine not being armed. Or not being a bit practiced on a combat target range. If my State passed restrictive gun laws, I would move to another State. Where we would at least have a fighting chance, if an intruder gets vicious.

5 hours ago, Tim_Capps said:

This isn't for anyone who has already decided this is simply a violation of basic gun safety rules. We can agree to dsagree on that. This is for others who wondering why a industry safety rules that have produced a safety record that the aviation industry can only envy failed in this production.

 

There were all kinds of issues on set apparently Tim. Many of the crew were disgruntled as a result of having to drive 50 miles to the set every day rather than having a hotel nearby as they were promised. There were complaints about working conditions too apparently. The camera crew had walked off set the day before.

And yes, there are claims of gun safety standards not being followed. I cant confirm the veracity of those claims of course, but that's what the article claims.

 

Quote

 

The camera operators and their assistants were frustrated by the conditions surrounding the low-budget film, including complaints about long hours, long commutes and waiting for their paychecks, according to three people familiar with the matter who were not authorized to comment.

Safety protocols standard in the industry, including gun inspections, were not strictly followed on the “Rust” set near Santa Fe, the sources said. They said at least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to a production manager about gun safety on the set.

 

 

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set

6 hours ago, birdguy said:

I keep a Glock in a drawer under my bed. 

 

Not in a safe? Yikes!

Half of US gun owners keep their guns in a proper safe. I'm just wondering why you don't Noel as its regarded as the right thing to do? 

 

Edited October 25, 20214 yr by martin-w

1 hour ago, Christopher Low said:

I am so glad that I live in a country where I do not feel that I have to keep a gun in my house.

 

Yes, we are very lucky.

 

55 minutes ago, Fielder said:

Crime rates are lower in my smaller town, but I would have trouble getting to sleep without my simplex lock boxed pistol only 4 seconds away, right besides my bed. I can't even imagine not being armed. Or not being a bit practiced on a combat target range. If my State passed restrictive gun laws, I would move to another State. Where we would at least have a fighting chance, if an intruder gets vicious.

 

As much as I appreciate that the death rate goes up the more guns there are in a society (even suicide) and thus am opposed to widespread gun ownership in principle, especially military style weapons... I do appreciate the situation in much of the US, where a criminal is likely to have gun. And thus, if I lived in the US I would regard a firearm as a necessity, much like a burglar alarm is in the UK. 

 

3 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

I am so glad that I live in a country where I do not feel that I have to keep a gun in my house.

False Narrative.

I live just outside NYC, don't feel I "HAVE" to keep a gun in my house by any means.  Do you think every American thinks they NEED a gun?   I'm 47, never had an incident where I felt I needed a firearm. The vast majority of Americans will live their entire life without the need for a firearm.  It's sadly a case of the British press being obsessed with what happens in the US and cherry picking their stories.  Especially BBC. The perception of the US portrayed by British media compared to the reality is actually quite amusing.  

At least over there you only have machete wielding moped riding thieves attacking cyclists while politicians get stabbed and killed...  What's that about glass houses and stone throwing? 

Not to mention what does that position that every American needs a gun have to do with the incident at hand?  

In this incident Baldwin was informed it was a "Cold Gun" and was apparently practicing his turn with the weapon in hand to face the camera lens when it went off.  At that level I wouldn't expect Baldwin to second guess or question if the gun is cold.  When my race crew tells me the pressure is right in my tires I trust them as experts to be correct, I don't go and second guess or check their work.  At some level you expect the people you are working with to be the "experts" especially if you are not familiar with weapons.  I don't expect an actor playing a surgeon to be a real medical expert and I don't expect an actor holding what they were told is a cold gun to be a weapons expert. 

Edited October 25, 20214 yr by psolk

1 hour ago, psolk said:

The perception of the US portrayed by British media compared to the reality is actually quite amusing.  

How dare you! 😵 Do you really think our press would bend the truth? You'll be saying the BBC doesn't always tell the truth next. 😮

Bottom line, none of us were there so we don’t really know what went down. The investigators will do their job correctly we hope. Guns are as dangerous as rattle snakes and need to be handled accordingly. Here in Greenville SC there was an eight year old child shot by another accidentally when he got his hands on one some how just last week. Seems like daily there are shootings around here, road rage to domestic to bar room brawls to drug deals gone bad to gang drive bys. What people around here don’t get is that legal possession doesn’t give you the right to use the thing to settle grievances. Death is permanent.