13 hours ago, birdguy said:

Is that going to come out of his own fortune or from the $50 billion he's received in government subsidies?

Noel

 

The payments that Tesla/SpaceX received have mostly been paid back I recall. 10 years ahead of schedule for some loans. 

But no, its from the sale of his own stock in Tesla. 

Rather than complaining about subsides for renewable energy companies like solar City and Tesla and SpaceX that is making space flight cheaper and cleaner, we should be complaining about the  $11 million a MINUTE the fossil fuel industry gets in subsides. Something like $5.9 trillion if you include environmental damage. 

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by martin-w

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

Of course its not. Its about doing what we can to fix this planet while having an alternative plan b. 

Putting all of our resources into PlanA to solve the problems of poverty and hunger and homelessness and finding ways to get along with each other (if that's ever possible) instead of diverting some of those resources into a pie in the sky PlanB to save a very minute fraction of the elite...those with the wealth, technological knowhow, and desire to live in a cocoon for the remainder of their lives, serves only those who's hobbies are rockets and who would rather watch a spectacular rocket launch than watch doctors and social workers helping those in need.

And don't tell me can do both.  If we could people walking the downtown streets in San Francisco and New York and Los Angeles wouldn't be dodging homeless panhandlers.

Going to space is something only a very minute part of the world can participate in.  Helping those more unfortunate than ourselves is something most of can do.

We don't have much homelessness in Roswell.  And those we have are helped out by the Catholic Church.  But all of the churches in town contribute to the Catholic Church soup kitchen.  That means the more fortunate people who aren't billionaires are doing the work.

When I drive to WalMart I sometimes see some unfortunate person with a sign asking for money along the curb of the parking lot exit road.  On my way out I put a dollar or two in my shirt pocket to give to the unfortunate person holding the sign.  I'd rather that dollar go to him/her than to some rocket venture to 'save' humanity. Even if that person is a scam.

Noel

 

 

To solve the world's problems, voluntary donations will never be enough. The only way seems to be for governments to raise taxes, have the wealthy pay their "fair share", eliminate tax loopholes, etc. Suppose governments did this and raised taxes by 10% or even 20%, would that be enough to fund lasting solutions to the problems, assuming the money is wisely used? I realise that this would never happen but, is that what it would take?

For the Mars enthusiasts, I found an interesting analysis by philupandgo at:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Colonizemars/comments/58i9px/a_list_of_jobsoccupationsskills_that_martian/

On the other hand, I feel that a Mars colony would probably fail because of human nature. There must be a big psychological difference between being on an experimental Mars type colony on Earth or a community in an orbiting space station, and actually living on Mars without the reassuring sight of Earth nearby.

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

 

When I drive to WalMart I sometimes see some unfortunate person with a sign asking for money along the curb of the parking lot exit road.  On my way out I put a dollar or two in my shirt pocket to give to the unfortunate person holding the sign.  I'd rather that dollar go to him/her than to some rocket venture to 'save' humanity. Even if that person is a scam.

Noel

 

 

Then at the end of the day, that person you gave a dollar or two to,  walks down the street a ways and jumps into his BMW to drive home!  I have seen that multiple times here in the city and on the local or national news at night.

While working downtown SF back a few years ago, there was one women who would sit on the sidewalk with perfectly coiffed hair and makeup holding a sign saying "Homeless, destitute, living on the street".  One day I saw her walking out of her house over on one of the small side-streets off of 4th and Mission.  SMH! 

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

Putting all of our resources into PlanA to solve the problems of poverty and hunger and homelessness and finding ways to get along with each other (if that's ever possible) instead of diverting some of those resources into a pie in the sky PlanB

 

We aren't diverting any resources to Plan B. Space X are a private company, its their resources. And Starship is mostly funded by Starlink internet. Apart from the fact that SpaceX won the contract to put people on the Moon again. If you aren't happy about that, its not Musk's fault, speak to your government. 

 

Quote

diverting some of those resources into a pie in the sky PlanB to save a very minute fraction of the elite...those with the wealth, technological knowhow, and desire to live in a cocoon for the remainder of their lives,

 

Huh... what elite? Initially those that go to the Moon and Mars will be astronauts and scientists. Don't forget, its your own governments proposal to go to the Moon and Mars. Musk just provides them with the technological means in the form of a product. In time, as the technology matures others will go to Mars or the Moon if they so desire, courtesy of private industry. And it wont be the elite, the elite like to live in nice cosy houses with acres of ground on Earth... obviously. 

 

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

And don't tell me can do both.  If we could people walking the downtown streets in San Francisco and New York and Los Angeles wouldn't be dodging homeless panhandlers.

 

That's political, nothing to do with a private company providing a number of products. Elon Musk hasn't stolen all the money resulting in homeless people being on the street. 😁 Of course you can do both when you spend countless billions on a defence budget that's greater than your needs. What do you want Elon to do, sell SpaceX? And make thousands of people redundant? Given the thousands of people employed by Tesla and Space X and all the other companies owned by Musk I think you will find the loans (paid back with interest) and subsides were good value. And what of all the other big companies in the US, I don't hear you saying they should sell their companies, make thousands redundant and give it all to the poor. 

 

 

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

I'd rather that dollar go to him/her than to some rocket venture to 'save' humanity. 

 

A short-sighted opinion. Every time your government purchases a space launch from SpaceX they save the taxpayer bigtime. Space X charges less that HALF what other providers charge. And those products that get put into orbit. like Earth observation satellites, communications satellites, etc are beneficial.  Space flight is now a big and growing industry providing employment and beneficial services. Unless you'd like your internet switched off and your long distance phone calls no longer available and monitoring of the environment to combat climate change no longer available and of course all those people living in remote locations without internet to have their Starlink systems disabled. TV, phones, GPS navigation, business and finance, weather satellites, space science... I could go on and on. You should be happy Elon is doing it cheaper for you and more environmentally friendly. "Spaceship" will do all that plus put large telescopes in orbit. Its not just about Mars. Its an awesome reusable space truck. 

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by martin-w

1 hour ago, dmwalker said:

On the other hand, I feel that a Mars colony would probably fail because of human nature

I was just thinking about this Dugald.  Let's dig into life under the dome a little deeper.

Will there be an equal numbers of men and women?  Will they be married or single?  What about getting tired of your woman and wanting another one?  Will there be divorce courts?  That implies lawyers and judges.

Which leads to what kind of government will our perfect society have?  Authoritarian like the military?  Communist?  Socialist?  Democratic?  In any case there will be politics.  There always is.  Even in the military.

What about a monetary system?  Will there be money or just handouts as to what you need?  If you have a money or credit system some one or two or three are going to try and amass as much as they can and become 'wealthy'.

How do you expect the minimum of 4169 individuals Fr Bill says is necessary to sustain a society to get along with each other?

Of course there will be children.  How will they turn out?  I know the four children I raised under the same roof turned out much differently from each other although they went to the same schools.  Not all of them positive.

Now we need hospitals and nurses and doctors.  

And of course jails and jailors.  And courts with judges and lawyers again,

All this under a dome or even several interconnecting domes...neighborhoods so to speak.  Will they be equal or will some be better than others.  The professionals under one dome and the working people who keep up and maintain the environmental environmental controls and food production.

And what about the people who want to go back to earth?  Will they be denied because they are deemed essential workers?  How long will they have to wait for a return trip rocket?  Are there even going to be return trip rockets?

Of course there will be deaths.  So do you have cemetaries where survivors can visit their departed loved ones or mandatory cremation and ashes blown into space?

By now we have many more than the 4169 people Fr Bill said was needed.  Many, many more.  How will they be chosen?  What training will they have before they depart the home planet for Mars?  How long will it take to build a viable community on Mars considering all the trades required to build the domes and supporting infrastructure to make them liveable?

Or is Musks big rocket a blast off for his ego?  Because obviously colonizing Mars or some other planet with human beings just means transferring human frailties to another place.  Just look at the history of the American colonies.  We are human.  And humanity's pimples and warts and farts come along with us wherever we go no matter how noble our intentions were to begin with.

I don't think humanity deserves to be sent out to space for another try.  We've done that countless times here on earth in North and South America, Africa, Asia, Australia and New Zealand.  And woe be any populated planet we land on whose technology is less than ours because they will be enslaved.

The Hawaiians have a saying.  Before the white man came he had the Bible and we had the land.  Now we have the Bible and he has the land.  We aren't any nobler now than we were then.

Noel

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by birdguy

28 minutes ago, martin-w said:

We aren't diverting any resources to Plan B. Space X are a private company, its their resources. And Starship is mostly funded by Starlink internet. Apart from the fact that SpaceX won the contract to put people on the Moon again. If you aren't happy about that, its not Musk's fault, speak to your government.

SpaceX is a private company and if I'm not happy about it speak to my government?

44 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Of course you can do both when you spend countless billions on a defence budget that's greater than your needs.

I have always thought we spend too much on defense and unnecessary wars.  It's more of a 'lets go to war someplace' budget than a defense budget.  If I say any more they will shut down the thread and I rather enjoy jousting with you Martin.

44 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Every time your government purchases a space launch from SpaceX they save the taxpayer bigtime. Space X charges less that HALF what other providers charge. And those products that get put into orbit. like Earth observation satellites, communications satellites, etc are beneficial.  Space flight is now a big and growing industry providing employment and beneficial services.

I'm not a big fan of spaceflight; government or private.  It's an extravagance that ignores the problems on earth.

44 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Unless you'd like your internet switched off and your long distance phone calls no longer available and monitoring of the environment to combat climate change no longer available and of course all those people living in remote locations without internet to have their Starlink systems disabled. TV, phones, GPS navigation, business and finance, weather satellites, space science... I could go on and on

And I could go on and one about all that technology I neither want nor need.  I was forecastng weather before it was computerized and they closed all the local weather stations.  I hand drew weather maps from lists of weather station observations.  Business and finance ran just fine with people doing the work instead of computers.  The human touch.  I don't need GPS navigation.  I learned to fly in an airplane that had no radios at all.  And crossed the country several times just using maps.  I was satisfied with 4 local TV stations instead of thousand channels of 24/7 stations with nothing but pablum on most of them...especially the 24 hour news stations.

Noel

 

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by birdguy

53 minutes ago, charliearon said:

Then at the end of the day, that person you gave a dollar or two to,  walks down the street a ways and jumps into his BMW to drive home!  I have seen that multiple times here in the city and on the local or national news at night.

I know that happens sometimes Charlie.  But maybe the person really does need it.  I prefer to take the chance.  If the person is scamming and takes my dollar and I quit doing it then the person who really needs it will be out a dollar. 

It's like the charities that ask for donations on TV.  Some are scams and some are not.  I donate to four of them.  St Jude's Children's Research Hospital, Shriners Children's Hospital, Make a Wish Foundation, and the ASPCA.

Noel

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

its your own governments proposal to go to the Moon and Mars

So, will the Mars colonisation be controlled and operated by the US government with, probably, military personnel in command and Elon Musk's only involvement will be providing the spaceship?

I suppose this is the new space race. If the US doesn't set up some sort of colony soon, China will do it first in 2033.

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by dmwalker

4 hours ago, birdguy said:

On my way out I put a dollar or two in my shirt pocket to give to the unfortunate person holding the sign.

If they want money for food, try giving them a packet of granola bars. My son tried that but the offer was refused.

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

So do you have cemetaries where survivors can visit their departed loved ones or mandatory cremation and ashes blown into space?

Maybe composting for fertiliser. It's a matter of survival.

46 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

If they want money for food, try giving them a packet of granola bars. My son tried that but the offer was refused.

Some years ago Betty and I were walking on the sidewalk and an elderly lady with two small children came up asked us for a handout.  We were just a block away from a McDonalds so I took them there and bought them breakfast.

When we lived in downtown Denver Betty and I would sometimes go to Arby's for a roast beef sandwich.  Betty could only eat a half a sandwich.  She always put it in a bag and asked some panhandler if he wanted it.  They never turned it down.

I've done what you said from time to time.  Only instead of granola bars I give them a box of Oreos.  Everybody likes them.

It seems like everytime I talk about charity and giving a dollar or so people come out of the woodwork telling me what a fool I am because they are all scams.

I choose not to believe that.  Yes, some are scams.  But more are not.  And what's a dollar to me?   I don't run into them every day because I don't go out every day.  But giving some homeless person a dollar every once in a while isn't going to break me.

I'm an atheist.  But I call myself a Christian atheist because while I don't believe ******* Christ is God I do believe in his secular teachings of how we should help those in need and treat each other.  Call me a sucker, but I do what I can.

I believe there are many more people out there truly in need than those pretending to be needy.  And even if I give a buck to someone who's pretending, how does it hurt me?

Noel

 

Edited December 14, 20214 yr by birdguy

3 minutes ago, birdguy said:

We were just a block away from a McDonalds so I took them there and bought them breakfast.

Admirable.