Well, the NBC Peacock is not necessarily the most objective news source. And Musk is on the autism scale, so his PR instincts aren't always the greatest. So now I hope you feel bad 😉 He's also had to put up with his share of nonsense from Bezos inter alia. He's a visionary. I'm not saying he's above reproach on account of that, but I think he's serious about extending homo sapiens to other planets. I don't see how anyone can compare Musk and Zuckerberg. One just wants to build rocket ships and electric cars and bore really long tunnels. The other has directly contributed to the decline of Western Civilization. I'm not being political, because I have a personal tragedy to share regarding Facebook that occurred this very week.

I lost interest in FB a long time ago. So long ago, in fact, that I forgot I even had an account. The tragic outcome of Zuckerberg's evil invention (and, very well, some slight negligence on my own part) is this:

Somebody began posting ads through my account for a miracle weight-loss product. Each ad would feature a (careful here) binary female human of generous proportions in a "before" picture, and a somewhat less massive (in the physics sense) version in an "after." Whatever diabolical and no-doubt sadly underpaid minion did this had combed through my account to identify "friends judged to possibly benefit from this product. If it isn't clear what this looks like on FB, it's "Tim Capps" publicly sharing fat-woman ads singling out certain FB friends who might feel they could profit from the miracle "I" thoughtfully brought to their attention. So now, I have some cousins, sisters-in-law and even closer relatives who hate me forever. (Except for two who "liked" it, which I still don't understand, but some people are just polite.)

I dutifully tried to eliminate my account, but it's not just deciding whether to cut the red or the green wire, exactly. I had to wait for some damned code that never arrived, and have told offended parties that they're free to assist me in removing the account. And, you know, you can always (IIRC) opt to screen posts you get listed in. Just saying, ladies.

Musk is my guy. Zuckerberg can rot. Bezos is Santa Claus, though, so I can't complain too much about him. He's not going to the Moon anyway.

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

Strange because he doesn't impact your life in a negative way at all.

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.  If he impacts some lives in a negative way he impacts all of our lives in a negative way.

After what I read in Doug's attachment I don't consider him a decent human...especially not with the quality of the people he admires.

Perhaps we could use a few less technological achievements and a little more humanity.  

We are admonished about buying clothes made with child labor in sweatshops overseas.  But because Musk has made some batteries and solar panels and want's to go to Mars are we to excuse his slave labor tactics?

Noel

 

9 minutes ago, Tim_Capps said:

Well, the NBC Peacock is not necessarily the most objective news source

Is any news source?  And which is the most unbiased?  The one you agree with the most?

 

Noel

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by birdguy

23 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Is any news source?  And which is the most unbiased?  The one you agree with the most?

I get all my news from Russia Today. Not only is it transparent propaganda, but it appeals to the entire gamut of opinion. Other than that, I get my news from the window at the top of my stairs. It mostly involves goats, but at least I'm not being gulled.

I measure a man by what he is, not by what he's done. Elon Musk has failed that test. No amount of money or technological contributions can make him anything more than he has already shown himself to be...just a pathetic little man.

2 hours ago, birdguy said:

If he impacts some lives in a negative way he impacts all of our lives in a negative way.

Almost every action one does or does not take can and often does affect someone else's life in a negative way.

In a century or two he may be looked at as the Carnegie of his age. I don't think anyone has qualms about using and enjoying the fruits of the wealth that Andrew Carnegie built on the bodies of his workers.

Cheers!

1 hour ago, Luke said:

Andrew Carnegie built on the bodies of his workers.

Are you willing to sacrifice yourself to a substandard standard of living and having your body figuratively stepped on for the benefit of future generations?  Or is that reserved for bodies other than your own?

Noel

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by birdguy

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Are you willing to sacrifice yourself to a substandard standard of living and having your body figuratively stepped on for the benefit of future generations?

I think that was part of my oath when I went into the Navy. Also before that when I went into the Army. But, as someone who clearly has an inability to learn from experience, my opinion should be ignored.

It is not always possible to separate what a man does from who he is, although I had a fairly interesting legal career trying my best to do just that for men much worse than Musk (at least as far as I know). I am a huge believer in the information-action ratio. We have too much information about things we can do nothing about, and concentrating on the things in our own communities is better, even if it's yelling at the goats to get back into the pasture. That's why I'm not much into news anymore, but do what I can with what I see with my own eyes. I am excited by what Musk is doing, but I doubt I'll be the First Lawyer on Mars. Which is a real loss to the Martians, believe me. Except there must be two lawyers, of course, otherwise one has nothing to do. I doubt you get to be either Musk or Bezos (who swap richest man in the world status on a regular basis) by worrying about how the little people are treated. That doesn't stop me from doing my Christmas shopping from Amazon, since no one on my list is interested in SimMarket.

If anyone is in need of a good inspirational poem, may I recommend The Character of the Happy Warrior by Wordsworth? In my opinion, there has never been a greater poet in the English language. Although recalling Nelson's slightly posthumous victory at Trafalgar, I think it is a good meditation on the relationship between character and deeds. All I know is that if I were as rich as Elon Musk, my own priority would be to buy Lockheed Martin for the sole purpose of making P3D perfect. Oh, and Microsoft, too. Just to  mess with them.

56 minutes ago, Tim_Capps said:

I think that was part of my oath when I went into the Navy. Also before that when I went into the Army.

Tim, I was thinking of just that when I wrote those words.  You, Charlie, Doug, Fr. Bill and myself among many others have done just that.  We sacrificed(?) some liberties and endured some hardships that others (the nation) would benefit from our service.  In most cases it was voluntary and in most cases rather short term given the length of our service.  In my case it was career choice for which I am reaping the benefits now.  But in none of our cases was it a lifetime.  Nor was it the day to day drudgery of hard labor for a lifetime for the benefit of the robber baron.  If any have seen the movie How Green was My Valley where the way of life in the vilage was working deep underground in a coal mine from your teens to old age you see what those who worked for the robber barons, and in the current time work for people like Musk, went though.  Of course they could always quit but that wasn't always an option if they wanted to eat.

Most enlistments were four years at which time you could leave to persue other endeavors.  Officers had commitments depending on their education but once those were fufilled they could resign at any time except in case of war.

And your oath was not an employer.  For officers it was to protect the Constitution and for enlisted it was to obey the lawful orders of the President and superior officers.

So I stand by what I said.

Noel

5 hours ago, birdguy said:

Are you willing to sacrifice yourself to a substandard standard of living and having your body figuratively stepped on for the benefit of future generations?  Or is that reserved for bodies other than your own?

I try not to. At the same time, I am under no illusions that future generations may consider my working conditions inhumane and unreasonable compared to their own.

My point is that Shakespeare's Marc Anthony had it entirely backwards - when it comes to tycoons and philanthropists, the good lives after them while the evil is oft' interred with their bones. Compared to their predecessors, I think Bill Gates and Elon Musk will come out far, far more on the positive side of the ledger compared to a Carnegie.

Looking at what Musk is trying to do, if he succeeds at the cost of some overworked engineers and an expropriated beachfront I think we will have done well compared to his predecessors or competitors.

Cheers

2 hours ago, Luke said:

At the same time, I am under no illusions that future generations may consider my working conditions inhumane and unreasonable compared to their own.

We can look at the past but we cannot look at the future.  So we base the quality of our lives and working conditions now compared to what it was like in the past with it's coal mines, sweatshops and child labor.  We generally have it orders of magnitude better than they had it 100 years ago.

We have no idea what working conditions will be like 100 years from now.  They may better or they may be worse.  We have no way of knowing.

But if you want to compare Musk to Gates let's look at Glassdoor's rating of the 100 best places to work in 2021.  Microsoft came it an #9.  Neither Tesla nor SpaceX made the list.

Another measure of very successful people is their philanthropy.  How much do the very wealthy give back to the community.  Elon Musk can't even shine Bill Gate's shoes.

As a postscript I want to add that that I had better working conditions in my civilian jobs than people have it now.  I worked 8 hours day most of the time.  Seldom had to work overtime.  No doubling up doing the work of two people.  Periodic pay raises to cover the cost of living.  I write this based on the hours my children work and how many pay raises they get.  My wife didn't have to work although she did work after the kid were in high school.  She was a stay at home mom.  We didn't need two breadwinners to make ends meet.  I understand that's kinda rare now.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  

Noel

 

Edited December 11, 20214 yr by birdguy

6 hours ago, birdguy said:

But in none of our cases was it a lifetime.

 

EDIT: This is a topic I just need to take a pass on.

14 hours ago, W2DR said:

I measure a man by what he is, not by what he's done. 

 

Err... if you don't measure a man by what he's done, then you arent bothered about the fact he doesn't pay his workers enough or him denying the pandemic was an issue or any of the other actions raised in the article you posted. So your entire argument is negated. And I say a man that's attempting to prevent the loss of our entire species and fight the climate crisis, can't be the despicable villain you claim he is.

What a man does is related to who he is and Musk, like all of us, is both good and bad in varying proportions.

If you think making us a multiplanatary species to ensure the light of human consciousness remains in the cosmos, or having a significant impact on the climate crisis, both attempts to negate an existential crisis, the death of our entire species, is negated because he "doesn't pay some of his workers enough" and "was skeptical about the pandemic", then I have to disagree and regard that as illogical.

He's also signed the giving pledge of course, where he has agreed to give away half his wealth within his lifetime. 

Musk is, as he admits, on the Autistic scale, hence why his behaviour is often a little confusing to others. He is also utterly obsessed with making us a multiplnatary species. And that utter obsessions sometimes results in a less than positive experience for "some" that work for him. Likewise there are some that work for him who are thrilled and inspired to do so.

 

14 hours ago, W2DR said:

ust a pathetic little man.

 

Honestly, that makes zero sense. There's nothing "pathetic" about attempting to negate genuine existential crisis. 

17 hours ago, birdguy said:

But if you want to compare Musk to Gates let's look at Glassdoor's rating of the 100 best places to work in 2021.  Microsoft came it an #9.  Neither Tesla nor SpaceX made the list.

You realize that Bill Gates has not had a role in Microsoft management since 2008?

17 hours ago, birdguy said:

Another measure of very successful people is their philanthropy.  How much do the very wealthy give back to the community.  Elon Musk can't even shine Bill Gate's shoes.

One thing which has not changed since Carnegie's time is that philanthropy generally comes after the fortune has been made. Rather than comparing Gates and Musk today you should compare them when Gates was in his late forties, twenty years ago.

17 hours ago, birdguy said:

As a postscript I want to add that that I had better working conditions in my civilian jobs than people have it now.  I worked 8 hours day most of the time.  Seldom had to work overtime.  No doubling up doing the work of two people.  Periodic pay raises to cover the cost of living.  I write this based on the hours my children work and how many pay raises they get.  My wife didn't have to work although she did work after the kid were in high school.  She was a stay at home mom.  We didn't need two breadwinners to make ends meet.  I understand that's kinda rare now.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  

That can still be the case - we've been a one-income family for over two decades without any difficulty at all. The biggest change are the significant differences between industries in terms of pay and assuming that a single employer will take care of you - that all you need to do for 30 years is show up. That's certainly not the case even in software engineering - the most successful people from a compensation perspective are those who move around every few years unless their employer is aggressively promoting them. Up or out.

Cheers!