MILVIZ leaves P3D enthusiast market

[Holdit 551]

13 hours ago, shivers9 said:

Rob_Aincough makes all good points as usual above. MS may end up taking themselves down in the long run if that Board meeting happens again pulling the plug on this project just like it has done in the past with Flight and FSX. I was just thinking that it would be funny if X-Pain ends up being the real top dog and winner of the great MS Flight Sim goat rope. That might be a good wager if you are so inclined LOL!

Funnily enough, it was after trying out MSFS earlier on and being unimpressed with it, I gave XP11 a try and was very impressed with it, and most of my recent add-on purchases have been for it. I'm still on P3Dv4 and see no reason to move to v5 now, as I'm happy with its performance and the add-ons I have for that. 

I enjoy flying all three sims, but if M$ eventually pulls the plug, and development for P3D has dried up, there's still X-Plane. I think LR is in a position to take great advantage of the current state of flux, especially with XP12 on the way.

Also, XP11 gave me the King Air I always wanted, which nobody managed in all the years of FSX/P3D. 😊

 

[Dominique_K 10,152]

1 minute ago, Holdit said:

I think LR is in a position to take great advantage of the current state of flux,

If I had one buck for every post I read the last 27  years predicting a bright future for X-Plane I’d have my own real aircraft 😄. 

[d.tsakiris 420]

27 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Yes, a good boycott is the way to have the developers come back to the market 

Why would I buy products that are old and unsupported?

27 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

because you guys don’t buy anymore

I don't know about others, but I still buy (Edit: ...and I willing to bet that that also goes for most “guys“ in this thread). Granted, there was a short pause after the “big announcement“, but I quickly resumed my old pace. But there is only a limited amount of interesting stuff out there... MSFS opened up a new market of more casual gamers, and of course there's migration from P3D and XP as well, but I don't think it will stay this way, with the extreme sales numbers.

27 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

It is typical of this forum that you don’t ask for more aircraft but for ‘support’ meaning demanding that the Milviz, Aerosoft, PMDG  adapt the aircraft you bought in v4 to v5

While I'm not asking for freebies, I do expect a product for V5 to work with the various sub-versions and hotfixes. But I'm perfectly willing to pay for bigger updates and also enhancements.

Edited January 26, 2022 by d.tsakiris

[Holdit 551]

6 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

If I had one buck for every post I read the last 27  years predicting a bright future for X-Plane I’d have my own real aircraft 😄. 

Well, 27 years later it's still there, so...

But I don't have a dog in the "my sim can whup your sim" fight. I just go with whatever works meets my requirements. With P3D development stalled and MSFS still largely an unknown quantity, that leaves XP.

[Dominique_K 10,152]

30 minutes ago, d.tsakiris said:

Why would I buy products that are old and unsupported?

I don't know about others, but I still buy.
 

MSFS opened up a new market of more casual gamers, and of course there's migration from P3D and XP as well, but I don't think it will stay this way, with the extreme sales numbers.

While I'm not asking for freebies, 

Not buying unsupported older stuff is one reasonable thing, calling for a boycott (oops, the politically correct word is vote with your wallet) is another thing.

The point is that you still buy but I know that most of others don’t. Why do I know ? Because the vendors say so and leave. I rest my case.

Casual gamers ? Most of the simmers I see posting in the MSFS forum, are ex P3D or ex-XP. Simmers with a PC in good standing. Maybe there is a reason ? I perfectly understand why some of us like better flying P3D than MSFS. Overall I prefer MSFS but P3D is a good sim. Caricaturing MSFS simmers is certainly not a sign of understanding why we left.

I agree that the sales figure of MSFS will slow its growth but the sales of addons won’t for quite some time and anyway the user base is now so large that it doesn’t matter for the vendors 

Freebies. Good for you but you are one of a kind I am afraid if I read well this forum and this thread in particular.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Dominique_K

[d.tsakiris 420]

17 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Because the vendors say so

Some vendors say so.

18 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

Most of the simmers I see posting in the MSFS forum, are ex P3D or ex-XP

Yes, but there are surely also a lot of “casual“ gamers that don't hang out here.

23 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

understanding why we left

I unterstand why you guys left.

27 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

sales of addons [...] the user base

Where are there hard numbers on that? The recent Navigraph poll showed that while MSFS seems to have the largest share, the margin isn't nearly as big as some vendor numbers imply.

What I'd like to see are sales numbers on a) a new, high-quality add-on for b) all the sims for c) a popular location or aircraft, d) for which there was no add-on before.

31 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

but you are one of a kind I am afraid if I read well this forum and this thread in particular

That's not my impression at all...

[simbol 5,832]

The chain reaction that is driving 3rd party developers away from P3D is simply put lack of income.. 

Even when I am still supporting products for P3D, I find myself in the same position, my income from P3D has been more than halved.. it is 70% less vs 2020, and bear in mind I have been releasing new software for P3D via partners and contracts that I will not name / discuss due to confidential NDAs.

I get it, there are lot of you still very passionate about P3D, and there still high numbers of P3D users.. there is also a lot of users that used MSFS and went back to P3D or XP, but from those figures, there is a vast majority using "currently" XP / P3D as a holding pattern to see what MSFS will do in the next couple of updates and therefore they are not investing any more in their P3D / XP platform until further notice, this means.. no buying stuff..

So what you guys want 3rd party developers to do? sit and wait? start developing something new stuff for P3D (which would take at least 12 months minimum), while the current message from the market is saying, we are no buying stuff for P3D.. then we get the NavGraph poll results and it confirms what I see on my company accounting.. and it also indicates most people is moving to MSFS as their "full time simulator".

It also seems you all forgot what most P3D users were writing all over the place in 2019 when MSFS was announced in June 9 2019?, We saw so many post, everywhere, some of them very aggressive I must add, indicating, and I quote "I am not buying any add-on's for P3D ever again", and yes.. we saw it in our accounting books.. sales dropped in the first 3-6 months by 90%!.. some of my best friends in the flight sim community saw actually 100% sales stops for their products, they closed doors and went to work in normal jobs.

I remember around October 2019 I released AILRP, and the comments in the reviews of the products (despite receiving 9.5 of 10) were brutal, so many people saying lights for AI models? this is the problem with P3D.. I am not buying some f..** lights.. MSFS will have everything and for FREE.. and that was one of the nicest.. I had a very hard time on the first 3 months after release, I was really close to close down and give up, because I put so much effort and time developing this product and people were just incredible brutal and inhuman on their comments.. however being a person that never give up helped, I put lots of marketing, etc. and I recover the developing investment.. however it was clear, due to MSFS, I sold 60% to 70% less copies than expected..

So, is this move from Milviz really a surprise to all of you given what is happening, market indications, users reactions, etc.?

I find my flight sim company in a very awkward position, for the last 10 months the income is just not enough to justify the effort we have to put towards flight sim development, so yes, I had to do something about it and soon my first product for MSFS will come out.. (still waiting for Market Place process to complete! supper slow.. drives me insane..), but what was the alternative?, simply put, close down my business.. would that have been better for everyone? 

Now let me re-iterate, I am not dropping support for P3D, you guys know that, and I continue to follow each release from Lockheed Martin and I ensure all the products I am involved with (no just AI Lights Reborn, many others I worked with //42 and other partners) remain "supported", I want all current customers to remain happy, so when or if they move platform, they remain loyal, but lately I am really wondering if I would ever release anything new for P3D or not, because the latest thing we released new for P3D (in 2021), didn't return enough profits vs the effort put into it and all the required ongoing support it will required for the next 5 years.. I keep monitoring users reactions with each P3D release and sales figures, if these start to increase, then perhaps I might produce something new, but until then.. I am on support mode only..

So, that's the reality.. you guys should stop the negativity here, there is absolutely no need for hate, boycott or angry feelings because a 3rd party developer is trying to "survive" the incredible storm in the market shift caused since 2019 (2.6 years and ongoing). After all this is happening given end users behaviours and decisions they are taking.

Best,
Simbol

PS: The other guy mentioned in the Milviz video.. is Me.. so yes I am working with //42 to deliver the Bobcat for MSFS, I also worked with //42 to deliver the FreedomFox for MSFS and other products that will hit that market soon.. it is how I have been able to float around..

Edited January 26, 2022 by simbol

[SimeonWilbury 220]

3 minutes ago, simbol said:

So, that's the reality.. you guys should stop the negativity here, there is absolutely no need for hate, boycott or angry feelings because a 3rd party developer is trying to "survive" the incredible storm in the market shift causing since 2019 (2.6 months and ongoing). After all this is happening given end users behaviours and decisions they are taking.

Totally agree. I was writing a post myself arguing against any kind of boycott, but you put it far better than I could.

At the end of the day I think we should do our best to enjoy P3D as it is, regardless of future support. And the joy of this choice of sim is that there is still plenty of backwards compatibility for many products, so even if some content is a bit dated it remains 'good enough' to a large degree.

[Dominique_K 10,152]

45 minutes ago, simbol said:

reality

First of all,  congratulation for your entrepreneurial spirit. It feels good to read  ! 

And thank you to complement so well Milviz stream that I fear few of the posters have watched.

The P3D folks should open their eyes. The negativity towards developers you speak of, does not in anyway help to prevent  the P3D world sadly waning away.  

The core of the issue is neither thr 3rd party vendors nor the kiddos  playing with their xbox that we , all the MSFS simmers, obviously are for some 😁. The issue is the LM product which is not evolving enough to satisfy the consumer market. We. This is where the problem is . The P3D is an afterthought of the military market ? Here are the results. 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Dominique_K

[d.tsakiris 420]

Simbol: Nobody is saying you shouldn't develop for MSFS...by all means, do what you have to to keep your business going! But it's one thing to additionally develop for a different platform, and another to drop development and support for a platform (which you didn't, I know). I'm not talking about boycotting here, but I'm also not going to buy inadequate and unsupported stuff to change somebody's mind. Aerosoft has been one of the first and most prominent publishers to drop P3D, and while I don't like it, I still buy stuff from them if I want it.

[Dominique_K 10,152]

What does support mean ?

For me, it means helping the buyer  facing undue difficulties in using the product and correcting bugs. For almost any product, soft or hard, this kind of support is offered for a limited time. 

Now some simmers want to extend the meaning of support in two directions :

- enhancing the initial product with new features 

- adapting the product to newer iterations of the sim 

This is not support, these are indeed freebies .

[d.tsakiris 420]

8 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

This is not support, these are indeed freebies

It depends. If a product is advertised to work with V5, I'd expect the dev to keep it working with all sub-versions (5.1, .2, ...) and patches. I wouldn't expect her/him to make it compatible to, say, V6 for free. I think that's fair. I really wonder how that is going to be with MSFS...

I really don't demand free enhancements. And I think most people here wouldn't. I gladly paid MJC for their recent upgrade of the Q400.

[Christopher Low 5,393]

1 hour ago, simbol said:

The other guy mentioned in the Milviz video.. is Me.. so yes I am working with //42 to deliver the Bobcat for MSFS, I also worked with //42 to deliver the FreedomFox for MSFS and other products that will hit that market soon.. it is how I have been able to float around..

I for one am extremely happy that you are still "floating around". You reignited my enthusiasm for the Cosford Flightsim Show when I met you in October 2018, and I thoroughly enjoy seeing your fantastic updated lighting on my AI planes (courtesy of AI Lights Reborn Professional Edition) every time that I load a flight in P3Dv4.5. I am really hoping that we will be able to meet up again in the near future, because I could do with a good conversation about flight simulation with yourself and my other flightsim pals. We badly need a catch up since the October 2019 show!!

[Dominique_K 10,152]

6 minutes ago, d.tsakiris said:

It depends. If a product is advertised to work with V5, I'd expect the dev to keep it working with all sub-versions (5.1, .2, ...) and patches. I wouldn't expect her/him to make it compatible to, say, V6 for free. I think that's fair. I really wonder how that is going to be with MSFS...

I really don't demand free enhancements. And I think most people here wouldn't. I gladly paid MJC for their recent upgrade of the Q400.

Seems reasonable to me if the life of the product is not drawn out for years. 

This is a big issue for MSFS with its insane update flow.

[simbol 5,832]

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

Seems reasonable to me if the life of the product is not drawn out for years. 

This is a big issue for MSFS with its insane update flow.

Yes, but it is a pain we will have to live with.

Msfs market place agreement states we have to keep updating.. Is a must, If we don't MS have the right to drop the product out.

This is something I am taking in consideration for product pricing.. People will have my support as usual 1000 percent commitment, but they can't expect that for 5.99 or 9.99 usd per copy if you know what I mean....

S.