48 minutes ago, sightseer said:

At first I was only picturing living in a sealed dome with a pig farm but now you make me picture flying pigs as well

Gives a whole new meaning to the 'When pig's fly' saying doesn't it?

But, Dave, I doubt that they would fly.  But they could probably hop like kangaroos.

Noel

3 hours ago, birdguy said:

You will need farmland and livestock.  How are you going to irrigate and fertilize the farmland?  How will livestock fare in a low gravity environment?

That is an old-fashioned way of thinking about farming.

The stuff we will see initially on Mars will be very similar to this:

https://www.growpodsolutions.com/hydroponics/hydroponics-grow-container/

The first 'colonists' are going to have a very basic existence, plant diet and plant-based meat substitutes such as Beyond Meat products, limited activities within the confines of any structures, with only the occasional and dangerous exploration or essential maintenance outside of the biodome(s).

You lament the absence of fulfilling activities for you, and I would feel likewise. However, the individuals chosen to take on life on Mars will have a very different mindset to you or I. It certainly wouldn't be for everyone and won't be until such a time as we can make the living situation closer to that of here on Earth.

We have to start thinking of becoming a multi-planetary species. It's not just an asteroid impact that can be a life-extinguishing event. As long as humanity is grouped together on a single planet there will always be a possibility that all of us can be killed at once. Large-scale volcanic eruptions, nuclear weapons, bioweapons (whether intentionally or unintentionally released), natural diseases affecting plant or animal life, are just some of the existential threats that we could face.

Living in a biodome on Mars is just the first step in a long process of us hopefully achieving true interplanetary existence, as Musk himself puts it: "in order to safeguard the existence of humanity in the event that something catastrophic were to happen [...] I think we have a duty to maintain the light of consciousness, to make sure it continues into the future."

4 minutes ago, F737NG said:

plant diet and plant-based meat substitutes

SOYBEANS. When are they going to try growing soybeans? 

9 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

SOYBEANS. When are they going to try growing soybeans? 

NOT SOYBEANS. (I don't know the rules to this game. Is this the correct response? 😉)
I don't know, I'm not a space farmer. 

Also, this trial didn't have a great outcome:
https://www.permaculture.org.uk/research/soya-growing-britain

Anyway, for instance, plant-based (non-soy) meat alternatives, the ingredient list looks like this:

Quote

INGREDIENTS

Water, pea protein* (16%), canola oil, coconut oil, rice protein, flavouring, stabilizer (methylcellulose), potato starch, apple extract, colour (beetroot red), maltodextrin, pomegranate extract, salt, potassium salt, concentrated lemon juice, maize vinegar, carrot powder, emulsifier (sunflower lecithin).

I don't know how feasible pea-based meat alternative farming will be. I'm just highlighting a possible alternative to soy and meat.

53 minutes ago, F737NG said:

You lament the absence of fulfilling activities for you, and I would feel likewise. However, the individuals chosen to take on life on Mars will have a very different mindset to you or I. It certainly wouldn't be for everyone and won't be until such a time as we can make the living situation closer to that of here on Earth.

A good example would be those that choose to spend the winter at the South Pole. It doesn't sound pleasant in any way to me, but to them it is worth it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/02/how-to-survive-winter-in-antarctica/385509/

It even gets a little more extreme for doctors that must have their appendix removed before spending the winter.

https://www.antarctica.gov.au/about-antarctica/people-in-antarctica/health/

No one has ever said living on Mars would be the same as here on Earth, especially not in the early days.

1 hour ago, F737NG said:

Also, this trial didn't have a great outcome:
https://www.permaculture.org.uk/research/soya-growing-britain

On the other hand:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/field/soybeans.html#:~:text=Typically over 809%2C000 ha (2,oil production and livestock feed.

I can't imagine why it would be so difficult to grow them in the UK. I see pea protein is widely used here but I used Textured Vegetable Protein quite a bit. It's derived from soybeans and it has about 50% protein and costs about a quarter of the price of pea protein. 

I shouted SOYBEANS because all the attention these days is on growing lettuce and kale and zinnias. I think it's time to move to the next level and I think soybeans are the logical choice. I don't know about Quorn, though. Do you have any information about that?

I took another look at your reference and I see that soybeans need a certain bacterium in the soil, which you don't have.

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by dmwalker

4 hours ago, F737NG said:

The first 'colonists' are going to have a very basic existence, plant diet and plant-based meat substitutes such as Beyond Meat products, limited activities within the confines of any structures, with only the occasional and dangerous exploration or essential maintenance outside of the biodome(s).

When backpacking we always had Mountain House freeze dried meals.  Just heat them up with a little boiling water.  Scrambled eggs with bacon bits or beans or rice with some freeze dried meat in it.  We would always supplement it with berries we would find.  Once when camping in Glacier National Park I smelled strawberries.  I followed my nose off the trail and came to meadow full of wild strawberries.  We filled out hats with them and they were a fine desert after a freeze dried meal.

But I would not want to live for more than a week or ten days on such a diet.

When came out of the mountains and got into our car at the trailhead I would head for the nearest burger joint in the first town we came to.  I would sink my teeth into a cheeseburger (I always ordered two and my and the kids would order just one) and play the role of a glutton.  They were a delight after a week of freeze dried fare.

I cannot imagine a year of such fare.  As I said a week to ten days is enough.  But they were necessary to keep the weight of the packs down. 

I'll let the better men and women than myself spend a year of depredation exploring Mars.  But I still don't see the point of a Mars colony.  At least the Enterprise had a holodeck.

Noel

 

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

Where are you going to get the sunlight and water necessary for forests.  Aquatic regions?  Like lakes and rivers?  Where is the water going to come from?

 

Pretty obvious I would have thought. For the sunlight, look up, what do you see. Its a big ball of nuclear fusion. Noticed it? Did you think Mars Domes were made of solid concrete? 😀 I notice that my other beloved forum pals have educated you on the water availability on Mars, but to add, there's a device on Mars now that's generating water from the atmosphere, projected that technology 300, 400, 500 years into the future and you will find its pretty astonishing compared to our primitive attempts now. 

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

Millions of inhabitants?  How big is this dome going to be?  Not only to house millions but also to feed and water them?  You will need farmland and livestock.  How are you going to irrigate and fertilize the farmland?  How will livestock fare in a low gravity environment?

Unless, of course, your dream is going to Mars because you just want to go to Mars under the spell of Elon Musk.

 

We are talking hundreds of years into the future, Musk will be long gone and forgotten (accept in the history books) its nothing to do with "Musk's spell" do you think I'm a gullible simpleton that falls for the spells of famous people? (attractive blonde ones maybe) As I already mentioned, when you are dealing with a future time, hundreds of years into the future, the technology they have will be like magic to those of us that exist now. As Arthur C Clarke said... "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". Go back 500 years and show your camera phone to a person of that time. How do you think they would react? Now project forward 500 years and imagine what kind of incredible technology will exist. So yes, Mars domes will be big, very big. We will no doubt be manipulating matter on the atomic scale and creating transparent geodesic domes of immense size, that will be capable of withstanding all manner of stresses with ease. 

You obviously don't need livestock given that even with our primitive technology we have synthetic meat, and of course humans can survive very healthily without meat. But yes, the technology will absolutely exist to raise animals in our future Mars dome. And as others have pointed out, hydroponics and all manner of advanced technologies, many that we are not yet aware of will feed are Martians. 

Ever see the replicator on Star Trek? Such a thing may well be realised. Literally creating anything you want, all you need is energy. 

 

Quote

I know this is far into the future but you are pipe dreaming what you wish is going to happen.

 

I didn't actually say I "wished" it was going to happen. But yes, its very advantageous to the survival of our species if it does. So I think any logical person would be in favour of the idea.

 

Quote

If mankind had the technology to create a colony that can support millions on Mars then mankind can certainly steer away or destroy asteroids and clean up the environment here on earth.

 

I would imagine that as long as they weren't mega sized asteroids, that yes, we would be able to deflect them by then. Mega solar flares, nuclear war - or whatever other horrendous weapons of mass destruction are created - are a different proposition. The "great filter" isn't just about asteroids.

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by martin-w

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

Neither of us will be going.  But we are discussing this as if we were.  

You're not an outdoors person so you would have no idea how much the outdoors means to those of us who are.  It is VERY relevant to us who dwell in the bosom of Mother Nature.  It is something we can't live without.

You have no idea how much I miss it because I can't go there anymore.  I large part of my life has been severed now that I am essentially housebound.  I have my memories and my pictures but somehow that isn't enough.  So I am the model outdoorsman who has to choose a life without it on Mars or taking my chances by staying with it.  My choice would be to stay with it until the end.

You play with your rockets and I'll play with my fly rods and hiking sticks.  We are miles (or kilometers) apart on this.

Noel

 

I didn't say I wasn't an outdoors person. Far from it. I said...

"Yes, but not relevant. I wont be going."

We aren't kilometres apart at all. My daughter and me spend most of our time exploring the wonderful islands adjacent to us each summer. I don't stay indoors all day. Now if it was a choice between being dead, or living in a comfortable Mars dome with plenty to do... obvious what the choice is.

 

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by martin-w

13 hours ago, birdguy said:

Question: Why didn't the British ever manufacture computers?

Answer: They couldn't figure out how to make it leak oil.

 

Sinclair Spectrum. 

Acorn

BBC Micro

Acorn Electron

Risc

Amstrad

Apricot

Cambridge Computer

And about 50 more. A joke I know, but the Queen wouldn't be happy if I didn't correct you. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_computers

British cars leak oil on purpose, it stops the underneath from going rusty. 

My first car was a Ford Escort. Only two years old and underneath the boot was red with rust. If only id had an oil leak that was so bad it splashed under the boot. 

😏

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by martin-w

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

Did you think Mars Domes were made of solid concrete?

I thought so. I keep seeing images of domes 3D printed from the Martian equivalent of concrete and giving protection against solar radiation. Are you assuming that, in the far distant future, Mars's magnetic field will be restored so that this protection will no longer be required?

22 minutes ago, dmwalker said:

Are you assuming that, in the far distant future, Mars's magnetic field will be restored so that this protection will no longer be required?

Maybe not restored, but replaced.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/245369-nasa-proposes-building-artificial-magnetic-field-restore-mars-atmosphere

Martin, you guys are talking about all this wonderful technology we are going to have in the future to make Mars habitable under a dome.

We already have a habitable planet with a dome called the atmosphere.  Why can't all this wonderful technology100 years or 500 years from now be dedicated to cleaning up our 'dome'.  We don't have to extract water out of the thin air of Mars.  We already have oceans and lakes and rivers full of it.

We don't have to have hydroponic gardens. We already have fertile earth to grow things in and graze cows and sheep and pigs and chickens and turkeys in.

Instead of spending quadrillions to put perhaps a few thousand people under a huge dome why not spend it repairing what we already have and saving billions of people?

You know Mars has as much chance as being hit by a large catastrophic asteroid as Earth has.  But on Mars probably everyone in the dome will be wiped out.  But on earth enough humans would survive to start over again; and they wouldn't have to build a dome over their heads.

Elon is another cult leader and the Mars dome just another Jonestown or Waco.

Noel

26 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Elon is another cult leader and the Mars dome just another Jonestown or Waco.

Are you suggesting that people who attempt to resign from Tesla or SpaceX are murdered?