1 hour ago, dmwalker said:

Ecumenical:  of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches.

 

I know, I edited my reply as soon as I realised. 

56 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Do you mean dynamic braking when braking and slowing down that recharges the battery?  My Prius has that and you can feel it as you let your foot off the accelerator.  You can also see it on the dash power graphic.  Braking and slowing down should recharge the batteries as well as saving brake wear.

Diesel-electric locomotives use it for braking but the power generated is dissipated in resistors on top of the locomotive.

Noel

 

 

Yep, don't know what its called in a Prius, but its referred to a regenerative breaking. There's  a stalk on the steering column on most electric cars where you can set the degree of regen. At max setting its one foot driving. Don't think I'd like one foot driving. 

 

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

Electric motors have more torque than internal combustion engines.

 

You aren't kidding.

 

 

 

It's not settable on the prius.

Here it's called dynamic braking.  It's been used on railroad locomotives for years.  I don't know if those are settable or not.

What I do in my Prius is just let my foot off the accelerator a half a block away when I am coming to a red light or stop sign.  I can feel it happening and the graphic on the dash shows power going from the wheels to the battery.

I think New York subway cars have it too but the power goes back into the third rail.

Noel

Not only gas, but...

The London Metal Exchange (LME) suspended trading of nickel, the key critical mineral that is needed for electric vehicle manufacturing, after prices surged to record highs.

The price of the commodity surged more than 100% on Tuesday, hitting $100,000 per metric ton, CNBC reported.

Volatility in the mineral market could have major impacts on the global electric vehicle market, which is dependent on nickel, cobalt and other critical minerals for battery production, according an International Energy Agency report published in 2021. The average electric car reportedly needs six times more mineral resources than a conventional car.

I guess I better not plan on getting one next year...or maybe any year.

Noel

7 hours ago, TuFun said:

The price of the commodity surged more than 100% on Tuesday, hitting $100,000 per metric ton

Russia is the 3rd largest producer of nickel so what's going on lately likely has something to do with this price increase.  In the USA there are finally more mines, including nickel mines, being developed or re-commissioned, which is a good thing IMO.  We need to produce more of the stuff we need in our own country.

Most cobalt is mined in the Congo, and I won't go into the environmental and human toll that mining there has taken, but it's well known and it's not pretty.

EVs are great, in theory.  However, when you start to take into consideration all the negative aspects of EVs, and you do this objectively, they're not quite as attractive as some would like them to be.

Dave

Edited March 10, 20224 yr by dave2013

31 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Most cobalt is mined in the Congo, and I won't go into the environmental and human toll that mining there has taken, but it's well known and it's not pretty.

Oil has done so much for so many regions.

4 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Most cobalt is mined in the Congo, and I won't go into the environmental and human toll that mining there has taken, but it's well known and it's not pretty.

EVs are great, in theory.  However, when you start to take into consideration all the negative aspects of EVs, and you do this objectively, they're not quite as attractive as some would like them to be.

 

 

Tesla batteries contain less than 5% cobalt and they are currently well into development of cobalt free batteries. Other manufacturers are doing the same. The real issue is lithium and lithium isn't just about electric car batteries. Lithium is in cell phones, computers and most electronic devoices not to mention power grid systems. 

Batteries are not environmentally benign, obviously, nothing is, but when you compare them to the alternative, namely ICE cars run on fossil fuels...  they are indeed as attractive as "!some would like". Only 30% of the lithium used in batteries is lost after recycling and that figure is dropping. 

Fossil fuel cars generate 100's of times more waste than electric cars. 

 

Quote

 

The accelerating move to electric vehicles will entail environmental costs. Higher battery production will require more mining of minerals such as lithium, cobalt and nickel.

However, T&E argued that the cost of oil extraction for fuel represents a much greater environmental toll. The report pointed to a “double standard” used when assessing the relative merits of electric and fossil fuel vehicles, which takes the use of oil for granted.

 

Batteries vs oil: A comparison of raw material needs

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/batteries-vs-oil-comparison-raw-material-needs/

https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/batteries-vs-oil-comparison-raw-material-needs/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/01/fossil-fuel-cars-make-hundreds-of-times-more-waste-than-electric-cars

No technology is without some environmental cost. That may change in the future, but currently the technology to mitigate all environmental cost doesn't exist. Thus, the environmental cost of batteries should be considered relatively, relative to the alternative. 

Edited March 10, 20224 yr by martin-w

What I would love to know is how many kWh it takes to get one of these small EVs to a grocery store six miles away over mildly hilly terrain and back with lets say 400 pounds of payload (me plus groceries).

4 minutes ago, sightseer said:

What I would love to know is how many kWh it takes to get one of these small EVs to a grocery store six miles away over mildly hilly terrain and back with lets say 400 pounds of payload (me plus groceries).

I don't doubt that it's cheaper to drive an electric vehicle compared to a gasoline vehicle, especially lately.  I believe that in the near future they will become a viable option for many people, just not right now.  One of the biggest promoters of them in this forum doesn't even own one himself, which says a lot.

What "green" energy advocates don't like to talk about are the downsides and negative aspects of the things they endorse.

I just think it's important to be honest and have full disclosure in these discussions about "green" energy.  I'm not against renewable, clean*er* energy.

Dave

5 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I don't doubt that it's cheaper to drive an electric vehicle compared to a gasoline vehicle, especially lately.  I believe that in the near future they will become a viable option for many people, just not right now.  One of the biggest promoters of them in this forum doesn't even own one himself, which says a lot.

What "green" energy advocates don't like to talk about are the downsides and negative aspects of the things they endorse.

I just think it's important to be honest and have full disclosure in these discussions about "green" energy.  I'm not against renewable, clean*er* energy.

Dave

Amen!  The advocates, main stream media and politicians that promote this don't talk about the complete picture...probably because they know if they did, they just aren't a viable solution right now or any time in the near future.

It is cheaper to drive one, yes.  But it's way more expensive to buy one.  So, you pay $60K for a new Tesla to save $2/per gallon to drive one.  Do the math.  That's not a win overall.

Edited March 10, 20224 yr by klamal

actually, what I see is people stranded in cities after a natural disaster and they can't get gasoline for either their cars or their generators that they spent several thousand dollars on... but meanwhile, a guy with some solar panels, a charge controller, a few batteries and and an inverter can actually live halfway decent for the time (an unknown amount of time).

If a person had a good solar setup (solar/wind combo maybe) and an electric vehicle, it really wouldnt matter WHAT the situation at the gas stations were.  I would call that FREEDOM.

51 minutes ago, sightseer said:

If a person had a good solar setup (solar/wind combo maybe) and an electric vehicle, it really wouldnt matter WHAT the situation at the gas stations were.  I would call that FREEDOM.

What would that freedom cost?

Noel

29 minutes ago, birdguy said:

What would that freedom cost?

Well, in completely technical terms, I guess the costs relate directly to your needs.  How much energy do you need to do what you normally do.  You say you drive little so Im guessing your energy needs would be little.  

How many kWh would your car need to get you to the grocery store and back with some groceries?  Thats the kind of consideration that I'm concerned with.

I think it was last year that people in New Orleans were without power for weeks and the gas stations weren't pumping because they didnt have power either.  A similar but less dramatic thing happened here.  We were without power for about 4 days.  Call it unintentional camping.  You couldn't drive anywhere due to downed trees and most places were closed due to damage or power outages anyway.

Its seems to me that not relying on others for power would equate to freedom so the question might be " How much is that freedom and peace of mind worth?"

Was that the kind of 'cost' you were talking about?

EDIT:  I'm now remembering past conversations on this subject where you say that it costs too much to have solar installed.  So I guess your feelings will only be changed by deep, ongoing disruptions to your power supply that are actually an intentional part of supply side economics.

but also: How much is your electric bill?  How much will you pay in total over the next 30 years?  Do you expect your energy rates to remain constant over that thirty year period?

Edited March 10, 20224 yr by sightseer

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

One of the biggest promoters of them in this forum doesn't even own one himself, which says a lot.

who are you talking about here?  and do you not understand that there may be many reasons for not owning, not just an electric car but any car all?  For instance, I myself could never afford a car on my own.