Wow, that was pretty epic. Not really a fan of podcast type formats, but I downloaded it an finally got round to listening to the whole thing on the ferry trip back to the mainland yesterday.

Quite a firey debate - even had one of the microsoft execs in their comments praising OrbX, bringing that up was funny and awkward both at the same time.

Id say it was about 50/50 old and new stuff, but wow the new stuff was worth learning about.

Probably the biggest news is xplane is getting deployed in a level D sim. not specified who or what, my guess would be the new A320. Whichever it is that pretty much puts to bed any further bickering over "seriousness" of the sim experience options....

Really impressed by the float plane stuff, all that segment is new afaik (there has been a bit on it before, but nothing like that detail) and worth listening to, from training firefighters flying birds like the global supertanker through to driving up onto the bank in the C172 with floats.

Other big news is OrbX is launching a scenery dev academy, recruiting devs and getting back in to hand crafted regions. WaHoooo. Also, she did a really good job of obliterating any criticisms Ive had about OrbX over the years, with detailed explanations of the challenges they face with both MSFS and Xplane (MSFS London wasn't explicitly mentioned, but it was pretty obvious when they were talking about it...) really hyped for OrbX stuff with Xplane 12..... Think it was the Brisbane region (might have remembered that wrong) they are working on and are blown away by how good it looks (Aus not really a destination Ive considered flying much, but probably will be if this stuff ends up as good as they were hinting at)

On the release front, Austin wanted XP12 released last year, hopes it is out this summer, doesnt really believe he will get what he wants. Some nice insight into team dynamics of both LR and OrbX.

Headphones essential to listen to it, sound quality doesnt really work for speakers, there were quite a few moments I had to pause it just to absorb some of the things they were saying. The higher production quality 1 on 1s have been a pleasure to listen to, in the end I really enjoyed the dynamic of this once they got going.

Yes, I know there is another thread on this

But no one in there actually seemed to have listened to it - just the typical influx of msfs defenders talking their typical garbage getting it locked 😞, definitely didnt see any of these pretty huge take aways mentioned anyway.

Once again.

Wow.

Edited July 26, 20223 yr by mSparks

Promissing indeed !

5 hours ago, mSparks said:

just the typical influx of msfs defenders talking their typical garbage getting it locked

That's one way to look at it... You do realize a lot of these MSFS 'defenders' are very much looking forward to XP 12 as well? Let alone a lot of the X Plane 'defenders' are regularly throwing oil on the fire. Both sides are to blame for these threads getting locked, don't you think?

Anyway, I'm not here to derail this thread. Peace! Can't wait to try out the upcoming sim, will keep enjoying that other one as well.

36 minutes ago, Rimshot said:

You do realize a lot of these MSFS 'defenders' are very much looking forward to XP 12

Not really, they have a very funny way of showing it if that were true.

Like, we are actually faced with a truly generational shift in flightsim - not just "lipstick on a pig", but decades of hard graft by aviation experts finally coming together to give truly multimillion dollars worth of flightsim software, with the visuals of a AAA game used and to be used in real world training all over the world, and all they can talk about is how XP cant compete in photogrammetry or how Laminars eccentric lead annoys them.

For something like this, it doesnt take much to actually listen to the discussion, read the thread and comment on something missing that they found interesting.

Instead, boom, thread locked where one of the only actual comments on the content is "there was nothing new"... why the continual dishonesty if they really are looking forward to it?

48 minutes ago, Rimshot said:

Both sides are to blame for these threads getting locked, don't you think?

No. there is a clear distinction between those who read, watch and listen then update their world view as new information arrives, and those who repeat the same tired and debunked garbage over and over again, and I'm not the only one to notice it, the last page of the previous thread even makes the "flat earth" comparison, which is very much where the thread lock originated imho - checking -from someone who newly joined the forum in only February no less.

When I first tried to listen to the livestream - on speakers, that initial, pretty awkward discussion and the sketchy audio quality put me off (which is why I saved it for the few hours on the boat with no internet).

Giving it the time to digest, even this is rightfully addressed in there, I could hear the contents of discussions Austin must have been having with the team - Janovs "both sims can coexist", pretty much anyone and everyone coming to the conclusion it is "first principles" vs "a PR campaign" battle, Id love to know who came up with the "not based on marketing" line Austin repeated so often.

For those who are interested in the scenery aspect, OrbX demonstrated they are commited to the future of XP, and as good as said they want to get unbeatable scenery out of beta asap. 

So straight up if they are being honest they should be excited, and this whole 2 hour podcast should have been dissected 100 different ways by now.

Best in class for flight sim scenery getting cosy with best in class for flight simulation. 

Pretty sure that puts everyone else on the defensive. 

 

47 minutes ago, mSparks said:

Best in class for flight sim scenery getting cosy with best in class for flight simulation. 

'Best in class scenery';

 

47 minutes ago, mSparks said:

We already know XP12 has better trees/water/atmosphere/airports/aviation objects than MSFS.

Can't wait to see any of that.

Edited July 26, 20223 yr by 2reds2whites

8 minutes ago, 2reds2whites said:

Can't wait to see any of that.

If scenery is your thing I wouldnt recommend waiting tbh, I made that mistake with EGCB

Its no secret that for lots of reasons XP11 will be the better sim for a fair while yet.

4 minutes ago, 2reds2whites said:

'Best in class scenery';

Not to mention the steep climbing turn after take off. I doubt that move would be possible in real life. I might be wrong though, but it looks like the airspeed is quite low to pull of that maneuver. I'll step back now; I really do not want to sound as an X Plane critic or word not allowed of another sim, which is a label one gets here very easily.

4 hours ago, 2reds2whites said:

Can't wait to see any of that.

Yes, you've already declared your desire that you 'want XP12 to do very well'.

It's almost like you folks have a rotation schedule to buzz over here and take pot shots at alpha-version clips when they don't suit your fancy. If LR or anyone in these forums declared that v12 was going to be 'equal to' your current heart-throb, would you be able to look away?

 

7 hours ago, Rimshot said:

Both sides are to blame for these threads getting locked, don't you think?

The last thread got shut down when there were a couple failures to answer my request that the person describe something in XP they were looking forward to. It was and is a simple question. I mean, if you don't have anything to look forward to after 33 pages of discussion, then just stop talking. Especially if answering is going to make you upset. Instead we got a couple wild rants on religious behavior and trolling...and I wasn't even the one calling names. I was asking questions about tree movement. Surprisingly, instead of chastising the ranters, the mod shut the thread down. It was really quite peculiar.

7 hours ago, Rimshot said:

That's one way to look at it... You do realize a lot of these MSFS 'defenders' are very much looking forward to XP 12 as well? Let alone a lot of the X Plane 'defenders' are regularly throwing oil on the fire. Both sides are to blame for these threads getting locked, don't you think?

Anyway, I'm not here to derail this thread. Peace! Can't wait to try out the upcoming sim, will keep enjoying that other one as well.

I'm one of them. Not all XP users who also use MSFS currently are vocal on AVSIM. I fly in both XP and MSFS, but I'm really looking forward to XP12's release. 

2 hours ago, blingthinger said:

I was asking questions about tree movement.

actually interesting questions no one seems to really know the answer to (for either sim tbh).

Completely agree that kind of detail is used and useful irl. Cant say Im sure XP12.0 will be perfect in those respects either, at least not initially before people like you have had a chance to put it through its paces and file bug reports for those that are lacking.

6 hours ago, mrcultureshock said:

I'm one of them. Not all XP users who also use MSFS currently are vocal on AVSIM. I fly in both XP and MSFS, but I'm really looking forward to XP12's release. 

Same here. The semi-religious endless arguments where one sim has to “win” and the other “lose” are ridiculous.

I very much enjoy MSFS, but I also own and fly XP - mainly for the HotStart Challenger 650 and Felis 747-200. There is nothing like those two aircraft in MSFS, and I look forward to using them in XP12.

6 hours ago, mSparks said:

actually interesting questions no one seems to really know the answer to (for either sim tbh).

Completely agree that kind of detail is used and useful irl. Cant say Im sure XP12.0 will be perfect in those respects either, at least not initially before people like you have had a chance to put it through its paces and file bug reports for those that are lacking.

Bush pilots watch the trees too.

But aside from that mindset, I've lost count of the number of times I've ended up at the end of a runway and realized there isn't a wind-sock in sight either because there isn't one on-field, or because it hadn't been given a gateway treatment yet. And yes, I am too lazy to crack open a web browser to look up ATIS.

The trees that were shown in the keynote from less than a year ago do seem to be moving uniformly as a group with the wind. If the sim is going to spend the GPU cycles to have them bend and sway, there better be some directionality to it. If they don't, there will definitely be a bug report from me!

This is 2 numbers across the PCIe bus. A few more if you really want to get fancy with the motion. Certainly the 3D water is getting at least some of this information from the CPU every so often.

 

On 7/26/2022 at 7:06 PM, mSparks said:

Probably the biggest news is xplane is getting deployed in a level D sim. not specified who or what, my guess would be the new A320. Whichever it is that pretty much puts to bed any further bickering over "seriousness" of the sim experience options....

It's a 747-400, I did the integration with one of my colleagues. There are a few points that need clarifying. None of the simulators available whether its XP, P3D or MSFS are suitable for Level D approval by EASA, UKCAA or FAA. The aircraft flight and systems models are nowhere near the standards required for that level of certification, FNPTII/MCC level is the highest that any of these simulator packages could achieve as the simulator's host software. X-Plane 12 is being used as a Level-D compliant visual database and that is how it will be certified. The reason X-Plane is being used is because it is the only package that can be interfaced easily and completely with a commercial FSTD and meets/ will meet the performance criteria of a steady 60hz and full control of weather, runway and taxiway lights, correct appearance and correct visual distances for RVR and CAT I,II,III visibility. The good news for you guys is that many of these professional standards that we are assisting the Laminar Research team with will also be implemented into the consumer version.

Edited September 4, 20223 yr by karrilon
Typo

11 hours ago, karrilon said:

The aircraft flight and systems models

Any information on where the flight models are lacking for all the platforms you mention?

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

Any information on where the flight models are lacking for all the platforms you mention?

Looking forward to a reply from karrilon, I'll add mine.

Level-D sims and consumer flight sims have different requirements even for flight models.

In a Level-D sim, the flight model must exactly reproduce all the known flying parameters (as obtained from say flight tests) in the normal flight envelope. For this purpose, a table-based flight model (like the one used by FSX/P3D) is the optimal choice, since one just enters the relevant known coefficients and you get the wanted result.

The issue with FSX/P3D flight model is, I think, that it lacks many needed parameters, for example parameters related to ground effect, aeroelasticity, etc. It has some of them, but probably not detailed enough for a Level-D sim.

On the other hand, predictive flight models (as used by XP/MSFS/etc), are good for consumer flight sims because they are easier to create by users and should give reasonable accuracy, even if flight test data are not available. Also, in theory they should natively model out-of-envelope flight, which is not needed in Level-D sims (as far as I know).

The problem with them, is that it is more difficult or impossible to "tweak" them to get the 100% accuracy needed in a Level-D sim. For example, say a flight model in XP has a 85% accuracy of a given parameter when in ground effect. It might be difficult to modify the XP flight model to get that last 15% accuracy, or maybe it can be done but at the expense of a loss of accuracy in other parameters.

In simpler words, in a predictive flight model "everything is connected", while in a table based flight model every parameter is isolated from the others.

Probably, the only flight model used in consumer flight sims that could be used in a Level-D sim, is JSBSim, used in FlightGear. It is also used in the academic world.

Edited September 4, 20223 yr by Murmur