26 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

I don't think you can say that in this generality. I think it depends on regional practices. For example STARs in the USA and in Europe are usually quite different. Very long and not runway specific in the USA whereas quite short and mostly runway specific in Europe.

Then in many cases there is not really a choice between different STARS because there is only one STAR that leads from the final waypoint to the runway in use, so the STAR is determined by your last waypoint.

And even if there is a choice of STARs pilots / dispatchers can expect the most probable STAR and runway according to the weather forecast and local practices and include that in the flightplan (like Simbrief does). Of course then it still can happen that ATC overrides this expectation, but in most cases I guess the preplanned STAR can be used (or even requested by the pilot).

The problem with ATC apps assigning STARs is, are these assignments realistic according to IRL procedures (most commonly used STARs, noise abatement procedures, type of aircraft, time of day, etc.)? Or are these assignments just random? I seem to remember an ATC app I used before PF3 that kept assigning STARs which absolutely made no sense taking into account my final waypoint.

But anyway assigning a STAR in an ATC app might open a whole new can of worms.

 

Have a look at this thread, giving some insight on the topic.

 

 

As I said, I can see STARs being part of a flight plan but not a runway assignment - unless it's always the same regardless of weather etc.  

I think there are three ways ATC add-ons handle the arrival situation...

1. ATC can only offer what's in your flight plan, forcing you to add an approach/runway to your plan and ATC has no ability to assign anything on its own. This is very unrealistic. I would not use such an ATC add-on.

2. ATC will follow what's in your flight plan, if it's there, but if you exclude a runway assignment, it will assign a random approach/runway on arrival.  This is the default ATC, and thus you can force it to be somewhat realistic by not including an approach/runway in your flight plan.

3. ATC will ignore what you put in your flight plan for an approach and assign one based on airport procedures and weather at the time of arrival. This is the most realistic and desirable.

I believe FSHUD is #1, Default MSFS ATC is #2, Pro ATC is #3, and I'm not sure where Pilot2ATC is... either #2 or #3.

Edited August 16, 20223 yr by Virtual-Chris

6 minutes ago, threegreen said:

 

The route is pre-filed including SID and STAR with transitions but without approach transitions and runways. In most cases the SID or STAR doesn't change but the runway (and the approach transition if used) can depending on traffic and conditions. You put your entire route in the FMC with expected departure runway (assigned on clearance or based on ATIS), SID, route, STAR and expected/forecast arrival runway including transition to have accurate calculations for things like times and fuel.

Runways can always change, but (in the US) SIDs and STARs usually have routings out of and to most if not all runways so you just need to reselect the same STAR but for a different runway (the STAR itself doesn't change because it depends on where you're coming from rather than where you're going, only the latter part often changes with the runway).

 

Right... this is my understanding. An ATC add-on that cannot assign an approach transition and runway is a failure in my view.  Even the default ATC can do this.

5 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

Apart from other available options you can use the pf3_display app which  displays all frequencies and possible commands.

What I mean are not which buttons to press but dialogs like when requesting a different runway. From P3D I remember it displayed whether to use a certain runway and you would have to answer yes or no to go to the next runway. If I can't see this how am I supposed to know what to answer? Does the display app do this too?

2 minutes ago, threegreen said:

What I mean are not which buttons to press but dialogs like when requesting a different runway. From P3D I remember it displayed whether to use a certain runway and you would have to answer yes or no to go to the next runway. If I can't see this how am I supposed to know what to answer? Does the display app do this too?

That dialog window is still there in MSFS. There are several options available which you can set up in Options #2 - Advanced Options - View P3D / MSFS options. I have checked "Use PF3 display", "Use PF3 captions Window" and Information messages in "PF3 captions window".

 

5 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Right... this is my understanding. An ATC add-on that cannot assign an approach transition and runway is a failure in my view.  Even the default ATC can do this.

ProATC-X assigns procedures with transitions and approaches/runways with transitions dynamically on its own; most of the time the SID and STAR will be what was filed in real world route (if you use real world routes) as it knows which ones are applicable based the route you're flying. This is #3.

PF3 has no clue about procedures and you have to put in the name of the procedure you want to have assigned for every available runway at the airport. It won't change or assign anything here. Approaches and departure runways are assigned dynamically. This is #2.

2 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

That dialog window is still there in MSFS. There are several options available which you can set up in Options #2 - Advanced Options - View P3D / MSFS options. I have checked "Use PF3 display", "Use PF3 captions Window" and Information messages in "PF3 captions window".

Thanks, I'll check those settings as I've never seen anything other than the initial frequency overview, neither in pancake mode nor in VR. I would assume the settings are the same though since I never altered them after moving to MSFS from P3D.

I assume the windows won't show up in VR btw?

22 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

As I said, I can see STARs being part of a flight plan but not a runway assignment - unless it's always the same regardless of weather etc.  

I think there are three ways ATC add-ons handle the arrival situation...

1. ATC can only offer what's in your flight plan, forcing you to add an approach/runway to your plan and ATC has no ability to assign anything on its own. This is very unrealistic. I would not use such an ATC add-on.

2. ATC will follow what's in your flight plan, if it's there, but if you exclude a runway assignment, it will assign a random approach/runway on arrival.  This is the default ATC, and thus you can force it to be somewhat realistic by not including an approach/runway in your flight plan.

3. ATC will ignore what you put in your flight plan for an approach and assign one based on airport procedures and weather at the time of arrival. This is the most realistic and desirable.

I believe FSHUD is #1, Default MSFS ATC is #2, Pro ATC is #3, and I'm not sure where Pilot2ATC is... either #2 or #3.

4. ATC assigns a runway according to the wind when you reach your final waypoint, giving a clearance for the approach. Then it is up to you to fly the STAR / Transition you consider appropriate.

That is PF3.

 

22 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

... it will assign a random approach/runway on arrival.  .. thus you can force it to be somewhat realistic ...

I would not consider assigning a random approach realistic at all. If the assigned approach is just random and not realistic according to IRL local practices I would prefer to choose my STAR myself. But that is a personal preference of course.

The ideal ATC app would assign a STAR and transition completely according to IRL local practices and that would work perfectly with the completely different setup of STARs / Transitions in the USA, in Europe and other regions, but I am not sure if any available app can do this.

 

Edited August 16, 20223 yr by RALF9636

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I assume the windows won't show up in VR btw?

Sorry, I'm not using VR so I don't know.

3 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

4. ATC assigns a runway according to the wind when you reach your final waypoint, giving a clearance for the approach. Then it is up to you to fly the STAR / Transition you consider appropriate.

That is PF3.

 

 

I would not consider assigning a random approach realistic at all. If the assigned approach is just random and not realistic according to IRL local practices I would prefer to choose my STAR myself. But that is a personal preference of course.

The ideal ATC app would assign a STAR and transition completely according to IRL local practices, but I am not sure if any available app can do this.

 

How realistic is #4 (PF3 scenario)?  I can't imagine that's very realistic for an airliner arriving at a major airport.

As for #2, and assigning an approach randomly... yeah, agreed... it depends on what you're trying to simulate. If you're interested in practicing real-life procedures and entering an approach into the FMC based on ATC instruction, it's perfectly realistic, even if the actual runway choice is random.  In my case, I want to simulate the process a normal airline pilot goes through as close as possible.  It's not as important to me if the ATC assigns 8L or 8R... just that they assign it, and give me an approach and transition to follow so I have to punch it into my FMC and manage it accordingly.

28 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

As I said, I can see STARs being part of a flight plan but not a runway assignment - unless it's always the same regardless of weather etc.  

I think there are three ways ATC add-ons handle the arrival situation...

1. ATC can only offer what's in your flight plan, forcing you to add an approach/runway to your plan and ATC has no ability to assign anything on its own. This is very unrealistic. I would not use such an ATC add-on.

2. ATC will follow what's in your flight plan, if it's there, but if you exclude a runway assignment, it will assign a random approach/runway on arrival.  This is the default ATC, and thus you can force it to be somewhat realistic by not including an approach/runway in your flight plan.

3. ATC will ignore what you put in your flight plan for an approach and assign one based on airport procedures and weather at the time of arrival. This is the most realistic and desirable.

I believe FSHUD is #1, Default MSFS ATC is #2, Pro ATC is #3, and I'm not sure where Pilot2ATC is... either #2 or #3.

Yes, FSHud is the option 1, see the post Dynamic runway assignments - SimForums.com Discussion

Basically before to achieve TOD FSHud ask you to confirm Arrival Instructions, the information presented is the same that are in your flight plan and you just need to click in a button to confirm it.

Sérgio

26 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

4. ATC assigns a runway according to the wind when you reach your final waypoint, giving a clearance for the approach. Then it is up to you to fly the STAR / Transition you consider appropriate.

That is PF3.

Isn't this the same as #3 though?

17 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

How realistic is #4 (PF3 scenario)?  I can't imagine that's very realistic for an airliner arriving at a major airport.

It's realistic actually. You will receive the runway ultimately used by ATC (which may still change later on) and they will clear you for your STAR (if one is used) prior to the transition from your route to the STAR. They will either issue a bottom altitude you're cleared to and tell you to "descend via -insert STAR-" and leave you alone flying it or ATC will give you more instructions as to speed and altitude deviating from the STAR when traffic requires this. You're then eventually cleared for the approach and runway and are cleared to land upon contacting tower.

Edit: Seems that #4 was meant to exclude any STAR assignment. PF3 still clears you for the STAR you want but doesn't assign any.

Edited August 16, 20223 yr by threegreen

11 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

How realistic is #4 (PF3 scenario)?  I can't imagine that's very realistic for an airliner arriving at a major airport.

Of course it is not realistic, at least not for major airports. But we make a lot of compromises when simming... I prefer it over being assigned a "wrong" STAR.

 

Quote

As for #2, and assigning an approach randomly... yeah, agreed... it depends on what you're trying to simulate. If you're interested in practicing real-life procedures and entering an approach into the FMC based on ATC instruction, it's perfectly realistic, even if the actual runway choice is random.  In my case, I want to simulate the process a normal airline pilot goes through as close as possible.  It's not as important to me if the ATC assigns 8L or 8R... just that they assign it, and give me an approach and transition to follow so I have to punch it into my FMC and manage it accordingly.

That's interesting (and I really don't mean that derogatory) how different we define realism for ourselves. To me it would be totally unrealistic for example if ATC assigned me runway 8L to land when I know that 8L is not used for landings at this time of day IRL.

So coming from your point of view (which is totally fine of course), PF3 certainly is not for you.

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 20223 yr by RALF9636

4 minutes ago, threegreen said:

Isn't this the same as #3 though?

Yes but without the assignment of the STAR.

1 hour ago, RALF9636 said:

Of course it is not realistic, at least not for major airports. But we make a lot of compromises when simming... I prefer it over being assigned a "wrong" STAR.

That's interesting (and I really don't mean that derogatory) how different we define realism for ourselves. To me it would be totally unrealistic for example if ATC assigned me runway 8L to land when I know that 8L is not used for landings at this time of day IRL.

So coming from your point of view (which is totally fine of course), PF3 certainly is not for you.

Of course, I would love it if the ATC actually assigned me 8R because that's what would happen in real life.  What I don't want is for me to have to know that and essentially tell the ATC add-on that - so that it can tell it back to me.  If that's the case, I'd rather have a random runway assignment that comes from ATC.

LOL I am losing track with all these number, guys. ;) I just want to know which addon offers the most realistic experience.