PRO ATC SR is released - first impressions

[Virtual-Chris 682]

@tup61,

I read on the FSHud forums that it cannot dynamically assign an approach on arrival. Is that true? If so, it’s dead to me. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Ray Proudfoot
Long quoted post removed

[Cpt_Piett 4,650]

8 hours ago, tup61 said:

Don't think so but it depends on what you want and what's important to you.

Wow, that's a great overview of payware ATC options(didn't quote your whole post). I'll stay with default for now as I haven't found very convincing arguments to switch over to any of the payware options yet. Based on what you are saying, it sounds like Pilot2ATC could be one of the best at the moment, with additional voice packs. 

[Noncon 19]

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I read on the FSHud forums that it cannot dynamically assign an approach on arrival. Is that true? If so, it’s dead to me. 

It will offer you the STAR to the runway you entered into SB. Then prior to descent, you will get a dialog to either confirm the STAR or change it and/or change runway. 

[tup61 1,564]

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

I read on the FSHud forums that it cannot dynamically assign an approach on arrival. Is that true? If so, it’s dead to me. 

Correct. Afaik only ProATC can do that? Don't know how good (realistic) it is at that though.

[tup61 1,564]

5 minutes ago, Noncon said:

It will offer you the STAR to the runway you entered into SB.

Or: it will offer you the STAR that Simbrief came up with. 😉 There is no need to manually pick a STAR at any point. Unless you want to.

[Virtual-Chris 682]

12 minutes ago, Noncon said:

It will offer you the STAR to the runway you entered into SB. Then prior to descent, you will get a dialog to either confirm the STAR or change it and/or change runway. 

And @tup61... The thing is, no flight plan should include a runway assignment... that's assigned by ATC.  The pilot or the dispatch and flight planning team has no say in that.  For me, it's an absolute minimum requirement that the ATC can assign an approach and runway on arrival. Even the default ATC can do this. If a 3rd party add-on can't it's an instant fail. And Pilot2ATC can do this apparently.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Virtual-Chris

[MindYerBeak 73]

13 minutes ago, tup61 said:

Or: it will offer you the STAR that Simbrief came up with. 😉 There is no need to manually pick a STAR at any point. Unless you want to.

Will fshud line you up with the runway ?

[tup61 1,564]

30 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

And @tup61... The thing is, no flight plan should include a runway assignment... that's assigned by ATC.  The pilot or the dispatch and flight planning team has no say in that.  For me, it's an absolute minimum requirement that the ATC can assign an approach and runway on arrival. Even the default ATC can do this. If a 3rd party add-on can't it's an instant fail. And Pilot2ATC can do this apparently.

Even SB plans include the runway. And STAR. Even though that's not realistic. 😉 Afaik default ATC also uses the pre-planned arrival and even if you don't select it, it will give you the arrival it would have pre-planned. Afaik Pilot 2ATC also needs a STAR selected during planning but I am not sure... I might give the P2ATC demo another try LOL But anyway, FSHud is not for you, that much is clear. 😉

Edited August 16, 2022 by tup61

[Virtual-Chris 682]

1 minute ago, tup61 said:

Even SB plans include the runway. And STAR. Even though that's not realistic. 😉 Afaik default ATC also uses the pre-planned arrival (and even if you don't select it, it will give you the arrival it would have pre-planned. Afaik Pilot 2ATC also needs a STAR selected during planning but I am not sure... I might give the P2ATC demo another try LOL

It would be good to hear from a real airline pilot. I could imagine a STAR being part of a flight plan but the runway, approach, and transition will be assigned on arrival based on wind and standard procedures at the airport. Now Im not sure if the default ATC considers the wind or standard procedures for the airport, it might just select an approach randomly, but at least it simulates going through the process of adding the assigned runway, approach, and transition into the FMC. If you’re not doing that on arrival, you’re not simulation IFR in my view. 

[tup61 1,564]

11 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

It would be good to hear from a real airline pilot. I could imagine a STAR being part of a flight plan but the runway, approach, and transition will be assigned on arrival based on wind and standard procedures at the airport. Now Im not sure if the default ATC considers the wind or standard procedures for the airport, it might just select an approach randomly, but at least it simulates going through the process of adding the assigned runway, approach, and transition into the FMC. If you’re not doing that on arrival, you’re not simulation IFR in my view. 

Which is why I preferred ProATC with P3D. But after not using it for a few years and being used to default and FSHud voices... ProATC really sounds terrible. But well, maybe you get over that once you really use it yourself. I can buy it with a discount so... I did indeed always like to get a STAR etc. assigned without knowing 'by surprise'. I forgot how this worked in Europe (versus the US) because STARs are linked to runways in Europe... or was is the US?

Edited August 16, 2022 by tup61

[nomad71 16]

I just asked in the FSHud forum when this "feature" will be available.

[RALF9636 1,957]

1 hour ago, Virtual-Chris said:

 The thing is, no flight plan should include a runway assignment... that's assigned by ATC.  The pilot or the dispatch and flight planning team has no say in that. 

I don't think you can say that in this generality. I think it depends on regional practices. For example STARs in the USA and in Europe are usually quite different. Very long and not runway specific in the USA whereas quite short and mostly runway specific in Europe.

Then in many cases there is not really a choice between different STARS because there is only one STAR that leads from the final waypoint to the runway in use, so the STAR is determined by your last waypoint.

And even if there is a choice of STARs pilots / dispatchers can expect the most probable STAR and runway according to the weather forecast and local practices and include that in the flightplan (like Simbrief does). Of course then it still can happen that ATC overrides this expectation, but in most cases I guess the preplanned STAR can be used (or even requested by the pilot).

The problem with ATC apps assigning STARs is, are these assignments realistic according to IRL procedures (most commonly used STARs, noise abatement procedures, type of aircraft, time of day, etc.)? Or are these assignments just random? I seem to remember an ATC app I used before PF3 that kept assigning STARs which absolutely made no sense taking into account my final waypoint.

But anyway assigning a STAR in an ATC app might open a whole new can of worms.

 

Have a look at this thread, giving some insight on the topic.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by RALF9636

[threexgreen 3,139]

I've used both ProATC-X (in P3D) and PF3.

ProATC-X is one of the more solid ATC programs with regards to procedures. It uses navdata that can be updated so it knows all that ATC knows (runways, SIDs/STARs and to what runways they're applicable, transitions, restrictions, TA/TL, ...). It assigns runways for takeoff and landing dynamically based on wind direction and does the same for SIDs and STARs and you can request different runways and procedures. It assigns your takeoff runway during clearance so you can plan accordingly before blocking off. Vectors aren't the best though, especially intercept headings can be outside of what you can actually do. Most of the time this works however. It guides you along the SID or STAR telling you to climb or descent to the next altitude restriction for every waypoint that has one which is not realistic. The voices are not good; it sometimes shoehorns two voices together for a brief moment when one recorded voice can't pronounce a word so it substitutes that with a different voice for that word. Not many voices are available, mostly US and British (I think) and they are human recorded voices.

PF3 does not use a navdatabase which can be annoying if you care about putting in the data like MAP altitudes, procedure names, TA/TL, top altitudes, etc. and takes some time to set up because you have to look up the data from the charts and put it into PF3. It does allow you however to close runways for takeoffs or landing or even completely so you don't end up being assigned a runway that's too short or is never used IRL. Vectors are good and since it doesn't have a clue about SIDs and STARs other than the name you put in (for every single runway) it's just going to clear you for the SID or STAR and leave you alone flying it (like a "descend via" clearance IRL). The voices are very good in my opinion. There are loads for different regions that switch automatically as you pass into another country's airspace. Some of them are a bit weird but the vast majority is good and all include radio sound effects (realistic ones, not like coming over a radio from 1935). It also simulates oceanic airspace procedures including oceanic clearance, HF test and position reports which ProATC-X doesn't. PF3 only assigns the runway on taxi, not during clearance.

One word of caution and this may just be true for myself, but I'm having trouble with PF3 in MSFS. It can't read the weather in the sim so if you use live WX it's supposed to ask you if you do use live WX and will then get the WX from online sources. It only asks me for live WX about 2/10 times though and when it doesn't the altimeter setting is slightly off and the runway assigned based on wind can also be the wrong direction. Several times it's happened to me that it stopped talking throughout the flight leaving me without ATC. It also takes ages while freezing to come up with a taxi route on big airports like KORD. Unless I'm missing it there's no menu in MSFS apart from an initial one showing you the frequencies which you should write down or take a photo of because if you don't you're lost. Lack of menu also means it's hard if not impossible to request a different runway or anything else. Not sure if this is an MSFS limitation. I'm still planning to ask on their forums so perhaps I'm just doing something wrong.

Bottomline: neither satisfies me and I'm looking at P2ATC at the moment...

[threexgreen 3,139]

32 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

It would be good to hear from a real airline pilot. I could imagine a STAR being part of a flight plan but the runway, approach, and transition will be assigned on arrival based on wind and standard procedures at the airport. Now Im not sure if the default ATC considers the wind or standard procedures for the airport, it might just select an approach randomly, but at least it simulates going through the process of adding the assigned runway, approach, and transition into the FMC. If you’re not doing that on arrival, you’re not simulation IFR in my view. 

 

The route is pre-filed including SID and STAR with transitions but without approach transitions and runways. In most cases the SID or STAR doesn't change but the runway (and the approach transition if used) can depending on traffic and conditions. You put your entire route in the FMC with expected departure runway (assigned on clearance or based on ATIS), SID, route, STAR and expected/forecast arrival runway including transition to have accurate calculations for things like times and fuel.

Runways can always change, but (in the US) SIDs and STARs usually have routings out of and to most if not all runways so you just need to reselect the same STAR but for a different runway (the STAR itself doesn't change because it depends on where you're coming from rather than where you're going, only the latter part often changes with the runway).

 

[RALF9636 1,957]

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

It only asks me for live WX about 2/10 times though.

Strange, I get that query every time.

 

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

 Several times it's happened to me that it stopped talking throughout the flight leaving me without ATC.

That hasn't happened to me for a very long time. 

 

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

It also takes ages while freezing to come up with a taxi route on big airports like KORD.

That is true. But a timeout has been added lately so you just get clearance to the holding point (without a route) if calculations take too long.

 

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

Unless I'm missing it there's no menu in MSFS apart from an initial one showing you the frequencies which you should write down or take a photo of because if you don't you're lost. Lack of menu also means it's hard if not impossible to request a different runway or anything else.

Apart from other available options you can use the pf3_display app which  displays all frequencies and possible commands.

 

8 minutes ago, threegreen said:

I'm still planning to ask on their forums so perhaps I'm just doing something wrong.

 

Please do so, I'm sure your problems can be solved.