MSFS: My 2 Year Review

[Stavros 295]

6 minutes ago, Bob Scott said:

Pretty much everything I've tried, including the PMDG 737.  I've seen a few videos with other 3rd-party birds like the Fenix Scarebus that exhibited the same issues.

Come on man, you're the admin of a flight simulator discussion board. Are you really going to use childish nicknames to disparage developers like that?

[The Flight Level 2,119]

@StAgre Phenomenal!

This quote should be framed "Overall, I think the main complaints about MSFS vs. P3D are ones that go beyond what home simmers really care about. For myself and most of the people I talk to regularly about simming, MSFS provides a vastly improved experience in many ways with a significantly lower barrier to entry than P3D ever had. I have mentioned this before in other places, but for only the cost of the game itself + 1 airplane addon, you can have an immersive experience that is 95% there when it comes to systems and flight dynamics compared to P3D while offering performance and visual immersion that P3D will never come close to".

Edited August 30, 2022 by Doering

[Bob Scott 7,745]

1 minute ago, StAgre said:

Come on man, you're the admin of a flight simulator discussion board. Are you really going to use childish nicknames to disparage developers like that?

I've been calling Airbusses "Scarebusses" since LONG before Fenix showed up on the scene.  I got that from an old Air Force buddy who flew them for United for many years.

[lwt1971 7,456]

2 hours ago, Bob Scott said:

1.  Ground handling and ground effect dynamics--aircraft are excessively difficult to control during takeoff and landing, both airborne in ground effect and at speed on the runway.  Something is definitely amiss with how MSFS is handling the flight dynamics in proximity to the ground, making takeoffs and especially landings a squirrely hit-and-miss affair.  Moderate crosswinds can put you in the dirt, and aircraft seem to lose stability and wander all over the place when in ground effect.  Ground friction is a mess.

Ground physics/handling is very definitely in need of improvement, and since late Spring they have identified this area of the FDE as a target for rework and improvements in the future.. some of which are coming in SU10 and will continue to after that, but we might not see all these improvements ourselves until aircrafts start to take advantage of particular SDK/FDE changes (although in reading Seb's answer below the default Extra 330 will be enhanced to use these improvements in SU10 looks like)

From a recent Q&A (underlining my own): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-may-25th-2022/521293/2
Chat question – What are some improvements that are coming for ground friction and handling? - Timestamp 3

Seb – Four new parameters are coming in Sim Update 10. Two of them are going to give the possibility to eliminate or at least tune, but we decided to cancel it out on our plane where we tested it. Basically, an old feature that we kept from FSX. FSX was canceling out all crosswind below a certain speed. At 50 knots, you had 100% crosswind, and then it was fading out to 10 knots and then it was 0. The problem is, while you take off or land, the crosswind keeps changing. And it’s very unnatural. So this is something where, in the parameters for the plane you can say at what speeds you want this to happen. So on the Cessna 172, we’re testing this, so we basically canceled the effect completely. So you have a 100% crosswind even if you are parked, or if you go very slow. If there is a lot of wind, it can actually spin your plane around, at first. So that’s one of the new parameters.

Seb – And the other one, two parameters are there to allow you to control how sticky your wheels are when they are rolling fast. So when you are already going pretty fast in the takeoff, the sim was considering the wheels to be pretty much on rails as if there were slick tires from a Formula 1 car. Very sticky. And only the weight…so if you pull on the yoke, your plane gets a bit lighter. And the weight goes down, which reduces friction a little bit. But it’s still static. So it means that as long as you don’t push to the side strong enough, you’re still on rails. And so, there’s two parameters that allow you to make it so that the plane drifts off. The wheels are spinning so if you push to the side, it’s going to drift off a little bit, especially with plane tires that are not anything but racing tires. So we tested that with taildraggers. Taildraggers will always be hard to land and takeoff. But it’s a lot more natural and easy with that. So this is something we implemented on the Extra 330 for Sim Update 10. Also, plane makers have examples of how this works, so they can use it, too. We will deploy on more based on feedback. These four parameters are a first step on improving the ground handling. So more stuff will come afterwards. But Sim Update 10 is going to be these four.

From a previous Q&A (underlining my own): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-march-2nd-2022/503504
Forum Community Question - Any update on the revamped ground physics handling/friction? In a past Q&A, we mentioned it had been done. Can you go into more detail and what’s coming up in the future?

Seb - last year in Sim Update 7, there have been a few improvements on ground physics. I think one was related to an assistance. When you turn on assistance of ground rudder – basically it’s the thing when there’s a crosswind and propeller effects and the plane goes all over the place, and you have a hard time using the rudder to just stay straight – that is very tough. And then when you rotate, it changes a little bit because you don’t have the wheels that hold you a little bit in place anymore, and you have to do some rudder work again to stay more coordinated. On ground, you’re basically changing from one system, which is staying straight on the runway to staying coordinated in flight. You have to make the switch. The assistance takeoff rudder does that for you. And previously it was just switched off whenever you rotated. It made this hard transition when you take off. That’s something that has been fixed so that this assistance, instead of switching off instantly when you rotate, it gradually fades out over the first 200-300 feet once you take off. It doesn’t have this brutal thing where the rudder turns off instantly. And there’s other little tweaks and improvements on ground friction that we’ve been improving. Mostly for specific bug fixes on specific planes.

But still, there is a deeper rework we need to do. Basically, it all comes from heavy simplifications that were in the sim 10-15 years ago, which were always assuming that the ground was flat. That’s why you couldn’t have sloped runways or undulated runways. The ground friction model…basically when something’s on the ground and when the brakes are fully engaged, you don’t move at all: The plane sticks to the ground. There’s what one could call infinite friction: There’s no movement at all. This is something we added that didn’t exist at all. And it wasn’t really needed 10 years ago because there were no slopes. When you put a plane on a flat terrain without wind, it’s not going to roll anywhere. But if you put that same system on a slope, it’s going to roll away and not stay there.

There’s also wind. Historically, in the sim, there was a system so that at low speeds, any crosswind was cancelled out. The plane ignores any form of wind, when you’re below, maybe 5-10 feet/second, which is why when you’re stopped on the ground, you go full propeller power and then there’s some propeller effects, so the plane starts going left. And then, all of a sudden, the wind kicks in, and then if you have a strong crosswind, it does this sort of thing which is not realistic. In reality, if I have a plane on the ground, and there’s a strong wind, and I release all brakes, it’s going to start moving: The wind is going to push it. And that currently does not happen. There are changes like that that we want to do. We want to do the ground friction model to make it 100% realistic. Which means that we don’t have to do anything: We don’t have to cancel it out anymore. Everything is going to be realistically simulated from when you stop to when you take off. There’s no such thing as crosswind that comes in over a few knots. I think it’s going to make the rudder a little easier. You’re just fighting one crosswind. It doesn’t change over time unless there’s gusts. Also, it’s going to work better on slopes. This rework is planned for somewhere this year, whenever we have time to go into that. It’s going to be compatible because the parameters are the same. It doesn’t change anything in the way you define or create or make airplanes. It just changes the way all the constraints and forces are sold so that the plane does what it’s supposed to do. All the constraints are the friction, the ground friction, the prop wash, the wind, even the engine, which is slightly shaking the plane. All these things come together. Currently, it’s a little bit better because we worked more in a bug fix development system, where we said, “The plane is sliding on the slope? Let’s fix that.” “The plane is sliding when there’s wind? Let’s fix that” Now we’re in a situation where we need to implement a real system instead of having a block of patches. That’s basically the next step, and that will give us much more realism the precise moment when you rotate.

For example, a wheel is currently simulated as a single point. So, a wheel can resist movement or rolling or sliding when you brake. It does not resist rotation. A wheel can rotate [with a rudder or tiller] without resistance. If you’re in your car and you’re parked, and you turn the steering wheel, if you don’t have power steering, it’s not easy to turn the tire because it’s not a point: It’s a flat surface. It’s a patch on the ground of rubber that you’re moving. The new simulation is going to allow this. This helps with stability when you’re taking off. Currently, the plane is just a tripod of points, and as soon as the nose is up, you feel that it’s already twisting because the wheels are not simulated as patches of rubber. They do not resist rotation enough. These kinds of changes are going to make the moments of takeoff a lot more precise and realistic. Later this year.
 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by lwt1971

[Stavros 295]

5 minutes ago, Doering said:

@StAgre Phenomenal!

This quote should be framed "Overall, I think the main complaints about MSFS vs. P3D are ones that go beyond what home simmers really care about. For myself and most of the people I talk to regularly about simming, MSFS provides a vastly improved experience in many ways with a significantly lower barrier to entry than P3D ever had. I have mentioned this before in other places, but for only the cost of the game itself + 1 airplane addon, you can have an immersive experience that is 95% there when it comes to systems and flight dynamics compared to P3D while offering performance and visual immersion that P3D will never come close to".

It'll be an even lower barrier to entry once the ini A310 comes in November. Cost of the game alone will get you everything you need to learn the ins and outs of flying an airliner.

[Bob Scott 7,745]

38 minutes ago, StAgre said:

Overall, I think the main complaints about MSFS vs. P3D are ones that go beyond what home simmers really care about. For myself and most of the people I talk to regularly about simming, MSFS provides a vastly improved experience in many ways with a significantly lower barrier to entry than P3D ever had. I have mentioned this before in other places, but for only the cost of the game itself + 1 airplane addon, you can have an immersive experience that is 95% there when it comes to systems and flight dynamics compared to P3D while offering performance and visual immersion that P3D will never come close to.

OK, let's not turn the thread into another P3D vs MSFS contest. 

I was careful in my wording not to mention or make comparisons to any other sim in my post--my comments enumerated what I find to be significant shortcomings in MSFS at the two-year mark that I would like to see addressed.

[David Mills 4,774]

Posts are being deleted in this thread.

[Bob Scott 7,745]

3 minutes ago, David Mills said:

Posts are being deleted in this thread.

Yes they are.  As I said above, let's not turn this into another P3D vs MSFS contest.

[Cpt_Piett 4,817]

Approaching reductio ad Hitlerum it seems. Although the thread will be closed well before that point. 

That's all. I'll show myself out. 

[Stavros 295]

Back on topic, and not to circlejerk this point too much, but I think the most valuable aspect of MSFS on the hobby as a whole has been a vastly reduced barrier to entry to the hobby. Despite its issues, it has sold extremely well and much like FSX back in the day many of those who start with casual joyrides and buzzing their house will begin to look deeper into the simulation and look towards addons like the 737 and A320, scenery developers like FlyTampa and Flightbeam, and toward places like Vatsim to grow into the hobby in a serious way. 

There can be no doubt that this is only a good thing when it comes to the hobby as a whole and will lead to wider array of talented aircraft and addon developers and scenery artists to cater to a growing fanbase.

[David Mills 4,774]

14 minutes ago, Bob Scott said:

Yes they are.  As I said above, let's not turn this into another P3D vs MSFS contest.

You're the boss. So you make the rules, and we must abide by them. Understood. But a fair-minded man such as yourself should be concerned that the rules are enforced equally. I won't mention his name, but there is a moderator here -- and I'm not talking about you, Sir -- who frequently trashes MSFS and Asobo in the P3D forum and openly boasts about not owning MSFS at all. Yet this same individual often moderates the MSFS forum here. He is an admirable, intelligent gentlemen who has every right, in my view, to say whatever he wants about various flight simulators. But this freedom should be equally applied. Personally, I've never understood limitations on discussion here. It's as if a forum on automobiles wouldn't permit any Chevy-versus-Ford comparisons.

[Bob Scott 7,745]

We're in the MSFS forum in a thread about MSFS at the two-year point.  The history here has been that once the sim rivalry gets going, it derails any further rational discussion on the actual topic and the thread more than likely gets closed to end the food fight.  So the limitation is being imposed here to keep the discussion on-topic and not force an end to the discussion by hijacking it with partisan sim rivalry flaming.

[Stavros 295]

27 minutes ago, Doering said:

Absolutely! I've mentioned this often: It is beyond an absolute steal what you receive for $60USD out of the box! And the success over the past 2 years has led to the top developers joining the Flight Simulator team. Just look what we will all receive with the 40th Anniversary package!

Yes! Also the fact that you can buy the game on the microsoft store or steam is also a big deal. X-Plane and FSX:Steam Edition were previously the most visible flight simulators to someone with a casual interest in flight simulators and there's no doubt that having MSFS be a visible option in that regard is only a good thing.

[Bert Pieke 7,591]

1 hour ago, Doering said:

And the success over the past 2 years has led to the top developers joining the Flight Simulator team.

I would add to that a new generation of freeware (buy me a coffee) developers.. Because the sim uses current level software tools, young graphics programmers are coming out of the woodwork to enhance airports and scenery in general.. I cannot believe how many bridges have been redone, not to mention power lines and marinas..  Every time our Avsim group goes for a cross country flight, we first load up half a dozen of scenery enhancements... 🙂

[Sky_Pilot071 581]

Just to add that Jorg is awesome and has the insight and backing to add great resources as required.

If we  need a Michael Jordan on the team I'm sure he could make it happen.

Great interview with MJ: 

 

sp

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Sky_Pilot071