More stupid gusts, this time on final

[jcomm 6,020]

3 hours ago, Jeeeno said:

1) We are talking about MSFS, what's the point of showing an XP12 video?

Because I use and keep comparing both, since ages... And uninstalling both, since ever... And reinstalling both after a while, ever...

[G550flyer 1,047]

Lets look at turbulence/wind for a moment and see if we can shed light on the difficulty of implementing them into a sim. I mean look at the Level D real world sims. There isn't any live weather at all. You select what conditions you want and then apply it. If I want a pilot to do a single engine miss after a successful V1 cut, I just drop the ceiling 50 to 100ft below the minimums of the approach they're flying. I can select turbulence and enter the level, but I have never seen anyone use it. I had a guy turn it on to demo it once and that was the end of that. We know that there are so many dynamics associated with turbulence and it does make it difficult duplicate in sim. The thing that I found funny in flight sim's is that there has always been this disregard of weather. Yeah, you would check visibility and ceilings for the approach you are doing, but other than that, weather never impacted your flying at all. Even when they started introducing weather RADAR, I thought for what? Storms don't impact my route, I fly right through them. You never had to worry about icing causing aerodynamic trouble for takeoff and landing. You never avoided CBs that could pepper you with hail and damage your aircraft. There are no up/down drafts that would rip your wings off. Though they would freeze your pitot systems in icing, you didn't have to worry about the ice crystals in your engine that could reduce your power. Heavy rain fall would not impact your engine as I have seen my N1s roll back/surge in heavy rain once. Scared the bejesus out of me. You never had to wrestle with an aircraft on approach or takeoff in turbulence. In fact, you didn't notice you were in turbulence until the airspeed started fluxing lol.

In the real world, there is a reason why you constantly check and keep your eyes on the weather. A lot of conditions can lead to life or death situations and others can cause career altering events. Turbulence has always been one of those items that get a lot of attention. I swear, there are more discussions about turbulence on ATC freq than there is standard ATC talk. When I flew cargo, I would always listen to airliners checking in constantly requesting ride reports. To me as a cargo guy, it sorta sounded like whining. There I would be at FL350. I'm not going above FL350 because I don't want to deal with the O2 mask and I'm not flying lower because I'm already burning fuel as it is staying at that altitude. It's even to the point where ATC has become pro active and will start asking for ride reports when you check in. "How's the ride at FL350?". The turbulence didn't bother me much until I can't read documents or do flight paperwork. Well, when I got into biz aviation, that perspective changed. One, you can't have the flight attendant spilling cognac on the principal. Further more, the flight attendant can't prep meals or serve the passengers while in their seat due to turbulence. It's all about making sure the flight is smooth. Luckily for me, there isn't too much happening at Fl400+. Also, turbulence penetration speed is well below the speed I need and can throw off my timing. I'm going to share two challenging experiences I've had with real world weather and I'd like for you others to do the same. I want others to see what conditions we experience to give some enlightenment.

1st. I had this one flight going from the East coast to KCOS. It was mid day departure and started off in a standard fashion. One we reported in, checked the weather and they were calling for severe low level windshear at the Springs. I called up dispatch to ask how long these conditions would exist. They gave me a time at which the winds would die off and we decided to slip for 2 hours. We let the passengers know and hung out. After some time, we checked weather again and the LLWS warning had been cancelled. The winds were still strong and of course, you always expect turbulence at the springs due to the mountains. We pack up and go without issue. On the way in, we told the FA that the seatbelt light will be on earlier and to minimize movement in the cabin. At 20,000ft, we had already been jostled some and I dinged the belts sign a few times just to ensure everyone knew it was on. No one respects that sign in biz aviation. Once we were below 10,000 and being vectored in through a valley, we were getting rocked. We were about 200kts at this point and the air was rough. We slowed down to 180kts to prep for vectors and you could see the intermittent moose antlers show up on the PFD because of the gusts. Suddenly, we were lifted and then I was in the straps and things floated. It reminded me of a practice break away when separating from a tanker. The jet rolled hard 30 degrees and the AP kicked off. Got it under control and was able to re-engage the AP. The big wings on the jet made it worse because we could feel every bump on the road. We heard a chime and saw the Galley caas message. Clicked the galley mic button and stated go and the FA responded, I think I'm hurt. I acknowledged and we continued on the vectors. The flight deck door opened and a passenger stated, cabin secure from the FA. PNF explained to them how to latch the flight deck door open. The winds were like 15 gust 30 with a light cross. The jet was all over the place and it was cardio on the controls. It pitched, yawed and rolled taking large inputs to keep it as stable as possible. The gust correction didn't help because it led to floating, which is where you don't want to be. You don't want to nose it in and you don't want the floating either. I pound it in with zero flare and was relieved. Talk about sweaty hands and sweat on your face. That passenger had told the FA they needed something out of the baggage compartment before landing. While standing there, they both went up and was pinned to the ceiling and then came down. The FA was standing on the ergonomic mat at the galley. On her way back down, her right foot was on the mat, but her left foot came done on the inclined edge of the mat. She rolled that ankle and feel down. She went to the hospital and it was a sprained ankle. We had to commercial out another FA so that we could return after she arrived.

I'll do my second in another post.             

[G550flyer 1,047]

2nd. This was a interesting weather situation that caught us by surprise. This was a standard run down to Bogata Columbia and then a hop over to Panama City for the night. We got into Bogato just after midnight and 45 minutes later we were rolling again. We get up to cruise and we were in the weather. We starting hearing what sounded like light ice particles contacting the fuselage, similar to sounds of light rain. I glanced up and ensured that anti-ice was already on. We had light to moderate chop, but wasn't that bad. Suddenly, we had double bong cas announcements and a few amber cas messages populated in the cas stack. As I read the stack that also had a blue cas message, I hear the AT disconnect tone and then the AP disconnect tone. Then a message displayed in the FMS saying unreliable TAS. There was a blue left and right engine back up data cas and a blue and amber TAT message. AP and the AT would not re-engage. Then, we heard the sound of heavy rain for a moment and then it stopped. Shortly after, all of the messages started clearing and the FMS message disappeared as well. Suddenly, we were clear of the weather and you could see lights from the cities below. Tried to re-engage the AP/AT and it worked fine.

We were just shocked because the combination of messages didn't make sense. I then remembered that I had seen the engine backup data with the FMS unreliable TAS when someone had left the APU bleed off while on the ground. With the APU bleed on, some air is routed over to the TAT probes to aspirate them. Without aspiration, the temp difference between the probes can grow, especially if the sun is shining on one and not the other. When the temperature difference exceeds 5 degrees, TAT information is no longer used as backup data for the engines and calculations by the FMSs potentially becomes inaccurate. It was also interesting that we were getting ice and heavy rain at FL400. We didn't have any other issues for the rest of the trip.

Based on what we saw, it led us to believe we flew through a hot tower. Down near the equator, storms can rage and reach higher altitudes. This also allows them to throw warm air up higher in the atmosphere, which are called hot towers. As we entered, we encountered some severe icing which led to heavy rain. The icing exceeded the capacity of the probe heaters to keep the probes free of ice. As the temp difference between the two probes exceeded 5 degrees, the TATs were removed as a backup data sources. This led to cas messages. Seeing the temperature differences,the ATs relinquished control because they didn't want to risk over boosting the engines with the chance of bad temp data. The FADEC also reverted from EPR mode back to the crude N1 mode. ATs don't work in this mode because the thrust is non linear. The fault warning computer triggered the probe heat fail cas messages. I am unsure why the AP kicked off, could have been the moderate turbulence.      

These are some of the conditions you face real world and could lead to scenarios. Imagine being in that icing condition for an extended period. No AP, AT, bad data, at night, in the weather, moderate turbulence and severe icing. Add the impact of ice crystal induced thrust loss, you get in trouble real quick. This is what is needed in simulation. There is a reason why you avoid storms at altitude. I have watched many airliners go through holes threading the needle. When asked if I would like to, I respond no and take the scenic route. I've seen so many pictures of airliners who got a little too close to storm. The nice part, you may not always pick up storms on the RADAR.     

[Pilot2PC 25]

I found a nice IRL video showing PFD+ND along with sidestick movements on final.
It really corresponds to what I see on a daily basis on the Airbus, except the odd few days per year where we almost get a "laminar flow". Note the slight speed changes and stick inputs despite the the weather being really nice (slight headwind from 5 to 10kts). Probably also due to thermals over those fields on that sunny day.

My opinion on the recent sim changes: while I'm happy that Asobo introduced some turbulences to make the world a bit more lively, I would say though that in its current state this is overdone. IMO this is also exacerbated by the fact that we don't have the same precision with our PC joysticks/yokes/HOTAS compared to IRL (at least in the Airbus you'd be surprised how precise the controls allow you to fly, down the degree/knot in pure calm conditions at least). It's a very interesting topic anyway, and something that will most likely take a few updates to get about right...

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Pilot2PC

[Jeeeno 314]

I definitely agree: the idea is not bad. It's just badly implemented and overdone at the moment. 

[VBHB 298]

I've found with the Fenix that when you're like 100ft from the ground the engines spool up for some reason and it makes final part of landing become unstable and you have to start wrestling with the stick.  Is that normal? And is that caused by these so called gusts?  I found when on finals I'm pretty stable in manual flight until the final phase.

[cyril972 220]

1 hour ago, Pilot2PC said:

 (at least in the Airbus you'd be surprised how precise the controls allow you to fly, down the degree/knot in pure calm conditions at least). It's a very interesting topic anyway, and something that will most likely take a few updates to get about right...

 

That is a good point, a week ago I started working at Dassault Aviation on their simulator, and this is true, the control are so accurate, precise and sensible. The first time I tried to land a Falcon 7X it was hard because I was used to Thrustmaster joystick.

As for the flight dynamic, honestly I to me both MSFS and Dassault flight sim feels believable, I really think the control we use and the sensitivity setting play alot on what we feel and think

[The Flight Level 2,121]

44 minutes ago, cyril972 said:

That is a good point, a week ago I started working at Dassault Aviation on their simulator, and this is true, the control are so accurate, precise and sensible. The first time I tried to land a Falcon 7X it was hard because I was used to Thrustmaster joystick.

As for the flight dynamic, honestly I to me both MSFS and Dassault flight sim feels believable, I really think the control we use and the sensitivity setting play alot on what we feel and think

Great to hear your point of view! Nice to know the best home flight simulator is on a comparable level with Dassault simulation!

[cyril972 220]

23 minutes ago, Doering said:

Great to hear your point of view! Nice to know the best home flight simulator is on a comparable level with Dassault simulation!

Not really comparable, Dassault sim are way more than our home sim, just the physics seems similar. But those sim are made to work with real plane avionics and calculator, real hydrolic system, real plane hardware. I'd say MSFS as a lot of credit because I still feel like I'm flying a plane when I come back from work and fire MSFS

Edited October 12, 2022 by cyril972

[The Flight Level 2,121]

@cyril972 Yes, totally understand. I should have been more clear. I was referring to the overall feeling of flight dynamics and physics. What a great opportunity for you working at Dassault Aviation!

[ha5mvo 261]

1 hour ago, cyril972 said:

Dassault sim are way more than our home sim, just the physics seems similar. 

Just wondering,  how  did you manage to reach this conclusion?

[cyril972 220]

56 minutes ago, ha5mvo said:

Just wondering,  how  did you manage to reach this conclusion?

What I feel when landing the plane, when I put crosswind into the simulation for exemple VS in MSFS. I'm only talking about feeling, which is obviously not scientific

[F737MAX 5,738]

Seems 737NG Driver has some (minor) criticism of the atmospheric modelling in MSFS after all...
 

 

[JBDB-MD80 1,489]

Why is this thread not locked already?

[F737MAX 5,738]

  

4 minutes ago, jbdbow1970 said:

Why is this thread not locked already?

Cos real pilots have given their thoughts on this.
Here's another one...

I hope Asobo's addition of CFD for SU11 make flying a little bit more realistic.

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by F737MAX
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