On 10/23/2022 at 3:40 PM, Bjoern said:

Both don't throw errors when running in XP12 last time I've tested them, so yes. I can't comment on any potential flight model related issues though.

Scratch that for the EC145 as its custom governor logic needs major rework for XP12. As of now, it causes constant RPM fluctuations which make flying nigh impossible.

On 11/3/2022 at 9:11 PM, mSparks said:

If it hadn't, I wouldn't have said it, but it did, so I did, and I stand by it.

That isn't just about the ability to take a helicopter off, fly any route in the world (something DCS can't do) and land realistically. It's also everything else, the failure modes, the graphics, the lighting, the real world weather the airport and off airport simulations, and the list goes on....

You will simply never be able to sit in your fav helicopter (regardless of what that is), in your local heliport, (regardless of where that is), and enjoy everything that helicopter has to offer, pros and cons - in DCS; unlike XP that isn't what DCS shoots for.

Others actually try, but needed to get to where XP is today.

Why are you conflating addons with their host simulator?

I'm taking you to task for your nearly incredible over-statement of "...absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane..."

To which we can now add, "[competitors] are simply decades away from getting close, because they are decades behind incorporating ... expert feedback"

These types of blanket, absolutist statements are false on their face and blatant cheerleading.

I regularly fly in all the major (and a few of the minor) simulators, and each have their particular advantages. Frequently that boils down to a particularly well executed airframe otherwise unavailable (e.g., MilViz F-15E or T-38C), or one that is generally superior to most - and perhaps all - others, e.g., A2A's Bonanza or Civ Mustang, PMDG's 747-8i, or frequently, a particular experience, such as touring far flung parts of the world in MSFS using great freeware like the Bonanza CFD mod, or extremely challenging, highly realistic carrier ops in HeatBlur's Tomcat in DCS World, or VR furballs in IL2, etc., etc.

Each of those offers something more desirable than it's counterparts in the other sims, just as general helo flights in X-Plane do vs most of the others. But then again, helo ops in DCS World are frequently more engaging due to DCS being a more interactive sandbox, along with at least on-par graphics, lighting, modeling, "off-airport" ops, etc. And of course, I can fly real-time with dozens of friends, both in formation or shared-cockpit, etc., etc.

And though I prefer the DCS helo experience to XP's, it does not blind me to the many shortcomings of DCS World or it's addons, nor to the many advantages of X-Plane and it's helos, etc., etc.

Like I said, you need to get out more.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta
grammar

4 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

These types of blanket, absolutist statements are false on their face and blatant cheerleading.

I would love to have other options, but there simply isn't and the decades of expert feedback it has taken to get XP to where it is today is why I dont expect there to be even one any time soon.

4 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

., MilViz F-15E or T-38C), or one that is generally superior to most - and perhaps all - others, e.g., A2A's Bonanza or Civ Mustang, PMDG's 747-8i

lovely.

This is a thread about helicopters..... 

If you know another similator that comes remotely close to say

Or

I'd love to see some video of it.

Edited November 6, 20223 yr by mSparks

15 hours ago, mSparks said:

I would love to have other options, but there simply isn't and the decades of expert feedback it has taken to get XP to where it is today is why I dont expect there to be even one any time soon.

lovely.

This is a thread about helicopters..... 

If you know another similator that comes remotely close to say

Or

I'd love to see some video of it.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that there are, in fact, well simulated helos outside of X-Plane? I'm not in any way saying "better", or "you should switch" - nope. Just that there are indeed "options" of extremely high fidelity.

As to "decades"...let's see:

DCS World's Ka-50 first released standalone in 2009, which is a decade and a half ago.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/helicopters/black_shark_2/index.php?SHOWALL_1=1

DCS UH-1H released in 2013

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/helicopters/huey/index.php?SHOWALL_1=1

DCS Mi-8 released 2016 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/products/helicopters/magnificent_eight/?SHOWALL_1=1

Not as long as XP helos (well, longer than any that's still actively developed, I think), but that's a pretty good run by any standard. And of course, they've been updated and upgraded and still fly/function/work/look just fine even in the latest version of DCSW. 

Further to "decades" ahead, judging by their progress, Asobo seem to be measuring time in Dog Years, so I doubt it'll be another 8+ years for high fidelity helos to come to the sim. I don't think the pending rotary wing FM in MSFS 2020 will eclipse XP's (just as the fixed wing FM hasn't), but they've got all the right ingredients. We'll see how long it takes for your "expectations" to be adjusted.

And you're absolutely right - this IS a thread about helicopters. But it was YOU who added sim-specific features like "...graphics, lighting, weather..." to the conversation. So all's fair to reference other high fidelity addons that still shine, regardless of aircraft type or simulator.

My point there, which you apparently missed, was simply that the quality/fidelity of addons is frequently independent of the simulator in which they fly. A2A Simulations are the industry-wide case study for that, as are many of the freeware helos available for XP.

You asked, "[Do] you know another similator (sic) that comes remotely close to say...[the Ubben/Khamsin SA-315]?" Note: it is absolutely one of the best helos available in any sim. I enjoy it so much I've paid full price for it 2X in less than a year, just so I can keep flying it in XP v12.

But to answer your question: Why yes...yes I do happen to know another sim that comes "remotely close":

And if you like things a bit more high tech:

 

And lest you think there's no brains behind those pretty faces:

 

 

Ship-board landings? In bad weather? Comin' right up!:

Not as dramatic, but hey, it's IRL procedurally correct, unlike your example! 😉

High Seas Drama? Here's one:

 

I don't know about you, but that all seems pretty legit to me...

I can appreciate why some folks prefer X-Plane for helos (I like it plenty, too, but it can get kinda boring always being in single player and only being able to do civil ops).

It's just that this delusion you've got about XP and all it's helos being utterly superior is just that...a delusion.

Edited November 6, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta
extra word

22 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Why is it so hard for you to admit that there are, in fact, well simulated helos outside of X-Plane? I'm not in any way saying "better", or "you should switch" - nope. Just that there are indeed "options" of extremely high fidelity.

What part of "DCS offers basically nothing to someone looking to simulate a typical real world flight" is so hard to understand?

Or, maybe I'm wrong.

Here's a real world flight plan I use:

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/43863-balkan-area-detailed-flight-planner/

Are you saying I can simulate that in DCS?

Cos if not.... 

 

7 hours ago, mSparks said:

What part of "DCS offers basically nothing to someone looking to simulate a typical real world flight" is so hard to understand?

Or, maybe I'm wrong.

Here's a real world flight plan I use:

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/43863-balkan-area-detailed-flight-planner/

Are you saying I can simulate that in DCS?

Cos if not.... 

 

Definitely the part where we suddenly switched from discussing helicopter addon fidelity to never before mentioned flights around Belgrade and environs.

Your tool is pretty cool - a mix of mostly custom GPS waypoints that can generate printable VFR flight plans with timed legs accounting for wind, etc. Nice work!

Yes - you can easily plan detailed VFR flights like that in DCS World. And depending on the airframe, a plethora of alternate nav systems of varying precision are available, even a Garmin GPS knock off.

Heck, there's even a commercial flight planning tool that will handle most of what I see in your tool, including the generation of printable info, imports/exports, etc.

Whether it fits your specific use cases is a question only you can answer. But yes, you can simulate even sophisticated real world navigation plans in DCS World.

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta
grammar

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

to never before mentioned flights around Belgrade and environs.

You did mention it, when you disagreed with

On 10/19/2022 at 2:48 PM, mSparks said:

I think its probably worth noting that, absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane though, so lets just list them all, even the default S76 is pretty decent 😛

So go on, you post your S76 flight round Belgrade in DCS (I can't because I've never managed to get it working), and I'll post mine.

In fact, make it easy for me, I already posted:

Lets see how well DCS can compete against that flight and critique it. Certainly isn't flawless, but I have plenty of real world shots we can compare against.

10 hours ago, mSparks said:

You did mention it, when you disagreed with

So go on, you post your S76 flight round Belgrade in DCS (I can't because I've never managed to get it working), and I'll post mine.

In fact, make it easy for me, I already posted:

Lets see how well DCS can compete against that flight and critique it. Certainly isn't flawless, but I have plenty of real world shots we can compare against.

LoL, dude! So let me see if I understand your "reasoning":

You went on - at length - over roughly half a dozen posts about X-Plane helo's inherent technical accuracy being decades ahead of anything else available anywhere...

...and your final trump card of proof is that all that must be true since you IRL fly R-22's around Belgrade?!? REALLY?

So why even post the video about the AB 315 - is that a bird you regularly train on? Or the frigate landing - is that also part of your training package in Belgrade?

I mean, if the specific geography is so important to VFR helo training, then I'm sure you'll hop over to MSFS when helos release in a week or so?

Me? I live many thousands of miles away from where I learned to fly. And the thing I figured out is that gravity and aerodynamics are pretty much the same over here, too.

So when my priority is simulation in a high fidelity aircraft that I'll never get to fly IRL, it just doesn't matter what the closest ICAO code is.

And I certainly wouldn't be mouthing off about how their high fidelity makes them superior to every other addon. "'Cos" that'd be ridiculous.

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta

29 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

ou went on - at length - over roughly half a dozen posts about X-Plane helo's inherent technical accuracy being decades ahead of anything else available anywhere...

because it is?

29 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

.and your final trump card of proof is that all that must be true since you IRL fly R-22's around Belgrade?!? REALLY?

well, no, its just a really basic example of, for the 3rd time:

On 11/4/2022 at 8:11 AM, mSparks said:

That isn't just about the ability to take a helicopter off, fly any route in the world (something DCS can't do) and land realistically. It's also everything else, the failure modes, the graphics, the lighting, the real world weather the airport and off airport simulations, and the list goes on....

You then proceeded to post a couple of videos of a DCS helicopter landing, like the somehow proves or is remotely relevant as to whether DCS is suitable for the other 1490 hours of knowledge you need before you can sit in the copilot seat of an AW109

29 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

So why even post the video about the AB 315

no idea what you are talking about now, maybe you are thinking of someone else?

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by mSparks

On 11/4/2022 at 2:05 PM, Bjoern said:

Scratch that for the EC145 as its custom governor logic needs major rework for XP12. As of now, it causes constant RPM fluctuations which make flying nigh impossible.

Workaround here: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/77466-xfer-design-h145/&do=findComment&comment=371785

This may also fix other helicopters with the same issue.

On 11/7/2022 at 8:58 AM, mSparks said:

because it is?

well, no, its just a really basic example of, for the 3rd time:

You then proceeded to post a couple of videos of a DCS helicopter landing, like the somehow proves or is remotely relevant as to whether DCS is suitable for the other 1490 hours of knowledge you need before you can sit in the copilot seat of an AW109

no idea what you are talking about now, maybe you are thinking of someone else?

So there you go again conflating simulators with real life in inappropriate ways.

Why do you keep tossing in IRL aircraft that are utterly irrelevant to your claims of the realistic simulation the simulators are capable of delivering?

For e.g., there isn't a high fidelity AW109 addon for X-Plane, either. At least not one that i'd trust to inform myself for IRL certification. So no matter what I'd have to get the training from another simulator...

You'd have been much better off using the AB 412 as an example, or the CH-47. The AW109 addon has never been highly regarded in any sense - it's just a pretty face.

So, we can conclude that the availability of specific High Fidelity addons for either sim simply has no bearing on whether either is inherently superior for rotary wing simulation. 

And you have yet to substantiate your repeated claims of XP's helo addons superiority over all others even in the face of clear and incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. We'll have to assume you can't, either due to lack of perspective, or knowledge that it simply isn't true.

And yes, for the 3rd time, the only clear advantage of XP over DCS for generally realistic helo ops is it's ability to plunk you down anywhere in the world. Since you like IRL comparisons so much, let me tell you a short one: My dad was an IP for Gulfstream and trained pilots from all over the world to fly them - almost exclusively in a Level D simulator. And guess where the Sultan of Oman's pilots flew in the sim for all their training? Right there at the factory airfield, because at the time that's all the scenery the simulator could handle. And somehow all those pro pilots managed to get type-rated and then go back to Oman or wherever and never crashed because they had "only" been certified at a poorly simulated airport they'd probably never visit again.

The DCS helo vids were in direct contrast to your posted vids, and the dynamics on display are at least as impressive as your samples, no? And how is it possible that you forgot YOU posted the 315 video as "proof" that nothing "comes remotely close"...?? I mean, come on, man - just scroll up the page a couple of posts and read your own words?

All you've been doing for the last couple of posts is throwing Red Herrings...

Edited November 9, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta
fact correction

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Why do you keep tossing in IRL aircraft that are utterly irrelevant to your claims of the realistic simulation the simulators are capable of delivering?

You'll have to explain that to me.

Why do you think simulating real world aircraft and the requirements for flying them IRL is "utterly irrelevent" to how realistic a flight simulator is?

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

much better off using the AB 412

Well, here they use a Bell 206

good friends with her pilots, but never got more than a few feet from the bird, never seen a 412, let alone flown one, so can't really comment.

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

The AW109 addon has never been highly regarded in any sense - it's just a pretty face.

If you are talking about 

Main issue for me is the cockpit, I posted a picture of what it should look like earlier in the thread

There's also a video of it taking off in bad weather here:

 

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

The DCS helo vids were in direct contrast to your posted vids, and the dynamics on display are at least as impressive as your samples, no?

For the 4th or 5th time, one good aspect of the thousands of important aspects required for good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation does not a good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation make.

Quite frankly your insistence that DCS is a good choice to build a good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation out on is absolutely ridiculous. My choices were unigine or XPlane 12, and I went with Xplane 12.

7 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

All you've been doing for the last couple of posts is throwing Red Herrings...

I've been trying to explain to you why XPlane is the choice for helicopter and VTOL aircraft simulation e.g.

Enjoy your shoot-em-up. For those kicks I stick with CSGO, which is just about as relevant to the topic as anything DCS has to offer, only thing less its missing is good flight dynamics..

 

Edited November 10, 20223 yr by mSparks

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

You'll have to explain that to me.

Why do you think simulating real world aircraft and the requirements for flying them IRL is "utterly irrelevent" to how realistic a flight simulator is?

Well, here they use a Bell 206

 

good friends with her pilots, but never got more than a few feet from the bird, never seen a 412, let alone flown one, so can't really comment.

If you are talking about 

Main issue for me is the cockpit, I posted a picture of what it should look like earlier in the thread

There's also a video of it taking off in bad weather here:

For the 4th or 5th time, one good aspect of the thousands of important aspects required for good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation does not a good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation make.

Quite frankly your insistence that DCS is a good choice to build a good/realistic/useful helicopter simulation out on is absolutely ridiculous. My choices were unigine or XPlane 12, and I went with Xplane 12.

I've been trying to explain to you why XPlane is the choice for helicopter and VTOL aircraft simulation e.g.

Enjoy your shoot-em-up. For those kicks I stick with CSGO, which is just about as relevant to the topic as anything DCS has to offer, only thing less its missing is good flight dynamics..

 

IDK, perhaps it's a language barrier?

I'm SO glad you agree that HeliSimmer.com is a reliable source (but I do wonder why you believe their review of the AW 109 is positive - it's luke-warm, at best, even now. I mean, it scores a 7, which is quite low...)

And, you don't need to believe little old me, here's the opinion of an IRL US Army Aviator on the subject:  
https://www.helisimmer.com/reviews/nimbus-simulation-studios-uh-1h-x-plane

And here's some more, by folks who also are in the know: 

https://pro-flight-trainer.com/accuracy-flight-tests/

Those evaluations rate High Fidelity helo addons in both sims as being on-par with each other in terms of realism.

We see that folks who are IRL far more experienced than you do not share your convictions, and they are far more objective and reasonable in their evaluations of the suitable uses of various simulators.

So, sorry...I'm not sorry - when I take advice on which sims provide high realism, I'm gonna take their word over yours every single time.

(p.s., why bother wasting time with CSGO? Why not get extra value out of your time by combining the disciplines of flight and combat?)

34 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

We see that folks who are IRL far more experienced than you do not share your convictions

You seem to be confusing/conflating

 nothing coming close to X-Plane for your favourite helicopter

with

X-Plane has every helicopter you can possibly want ready to go 100% perfect.

Do you understand there is a difference between those two statements, and I'm saying the first not the second?

Have you also not noticed that those youtube videos with my face on are my videos?

Edited November 10, 20223 yr by mSparks

22 minutes ago, mSparks said:

You seem to be confusing/conflating

 nothing coming close to X-Plane for your favourite helicopter

with

X-Plane has every helicopter you can possibly want ready to go 100% perfect.

Do you understand there is a difference between those two statements, and I'm saying the first not the second?

No, not confused, not conflating.

As a reminder, these are your words, "...absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane though, so lets just list them all..."
"...even the most basic thrown together heli in XP by someone who has never actually sat in a cockpit far exceeds anything you can get anywhere else..."

Why don't you understand how utterly incorrect those statements are?

My favorite addons are the ones created to an extremely high standard of systems fidelity and FM realism, and I don't much care what sim they're in outside of that.

 

Bombastic statements like yours need constructive criticism, especially when you repeatedly double down on them.

Why can't you just admit that there are, indeed, options for high fidelity helos?

Here, let me, once again, meet you half way: I fly helos in X-Plane (and recommend them, along with XP itself) because they're modeled to a high standard, and I can use them to train myself in a highly realistic manner in the familiar environment right around my home airfield, or anywhere else in the world.

Now it's your turn.

Edited November 10, 20223 yr by UrgentSiesta