I thought it should be the .org, but didn't go checking. I will ...

So, these run in XP12 flawlessly ?

Both don't throw errors when running in XP12 last time I've tested them, so yes. I can't comment on any potential flight model related issues though.

On 10/19/2022 at 6:35 AM, jcomm said:

AB 412 Works in XP12, but has a dataref warning on load...

Doesn't fly well, tho...

On 10/19/2022 at 2:48 AM, mSparks said:

I think its probably worth noting that, absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane though, so lets just list them all, even the default S76 is pretty decent 😛

Clearly haven't tried DCS Helos, then?

On 10/18/2022 at 5:34 AM, airmanparker34 said:

What is your favorite X Plane 11/12 Helicopter? This can be one that you enjoyed from XP11 and is coming soon to XP12.

I am more interested in study level helicopters with the most detail. Payware is fine. So far for freeware I have found OH-58D Kiowa Warrior the best freeware for for XP12. Change my mind.

Hands down the SA 315 Lama.

Surprised no one mentioned the Chinook...

And the 412, of course.

49 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Doesn't fly well, tho...

Are you referring to the sideslip attitude in cruise ?

X-Trident Bell 412 ( Also hope that Dreamfoil gets back to development)

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Clearly haven't tried DCS Helos, then?

Actually yes, in VR even. A few years ago (before the really nice update) at a friends house who had a windows machine.

I stand by what I said.

4 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Doesn't fly well, tho...

It's a XP11 model and if you u are using it under Xp12 then  there will be some issues , from X-trident it's a stability or some issue.

Here is the XP12 thread for the 412 https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/272158-xp12-issues-list/

Have no real experience but I really like the 412 in flight

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by Humpty

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

Are you referring to the sideslip attitude in cruise ?

The flight model changes in v12 have affected it enough that after a couple short test flights, I've decided not to fly it until X-Trident has updated it and says it's "right".

Basically true with all the addons I have in one way or another.

3 hours ago, mSparks said:

Actually yes, in VR even. A few years ago (before the really nice update) at a friends house who had a windows machine.

I stand by what I said.

So you took one flight a few years ago using someone else's rig, that's not even the same OS as yours, and from that extensive cross-sample of experience you pronounce:

"...absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane..."

You need to broaden your horizons. Greatly.

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

So you took one flight a few years ago using someone else's rig, that's not even the same OS as yours, and from that extensive cross-sample of experience you pronounce:

"...absolutely nothing can compete with any helicopter ever made for X-Plane..."

You need to broaden your horizons. Greatly.

The thing with helicopters is that simulating them remotely accurately is insanely hard.

Its not a criticism of DCS, the experience was excellent enough that I was looking for a home VR solution from that day. Annoys me I still havent gotten it working properly on linux. 

However DCS do not have any incentive or need to go to the extreme lengths that xplane has gone to in order to deliver the ability to accurately model any helicopter even with no hours in an actual cockpit - yes, completely accurate still needs pilot input - mostly to identify bugs and parameter mistakes.

Its just not really possible at this point to over estimate how good xplane helicopters are simulated. 

If you have a favourite real life helicopter you want simulated to perfection, without doubt xplane requires the least effort of any and all sims to get it.

DCS is good/great, but xplane is in a whole other league in that respect.

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by mSparks

10 hours ago, mSparks said:

The thing with helicopters is that simulating them remotely accurately is insanely hard.

Its not a criticism of DCS, the experience was excellent enough that I was looking for a home VR solution from that day. Annoys me I still havent gotten it working properly on linux. 

However DCS do not have any incentive or need to go to the extreme lengths that xplane has gone to in order to deliver the ability to accurately model any helicopter even with no hours in an actual cockpit - yes, completely accurate still needs pilot input - mostly to identify bugs and parameter mistakes.

Its just not really possible at this point to over estimate how good xplane helicopters are simulated. 

If you have a favourite real life helicopter you want simulated to perfection, without doubt xplane requires the least effort of any and all sims to get it.

DCS is good/great, but xplane is in a whole other league in that respect.

X-Plane is excellent, and I agree that developing addons there is far more efficient than other simulators. 

However, XP is far from "perfection" - otherwise why would the flight model of v12 have been improved so greatly for all aircraft (especially helos)? I mean it's been out for 20+ years now, right? Austin wrote at length about all of it, and the proof is in the way the new default aircraft fly (much different and much better), as well as how "off" the old aircraft are that haven't been updated.

Further, we see that certain developers are able to get even better results using code that is partially independent of X-Plane's FM, SimCoders being the prime example.

And we have plenty of anecdotes from IRL pilots that as good as XP is, there are notable areas that XP differs from reality (i.e., variances that appear over multiple addons from different devs).

And certainly we have seen that, especially in re helos, certain addons aren't great, and some that are, later receive updates to make them much better. 

This is constructive criticism of X-Plane, and it simply goes to prove that there is no Magic Pixie Dust imparted to XP addons that make them "simulated to perfection", and that the efforts required to get an excellent flight model are still quite intensive, and some devs even resort to their own custom code to get it, rather than using the native FM. E.g., VSkyLabs vs SimCoders.

As to DCS developers incentive to go to great lengths on flight models, TRUST ME - their vPilots are far, far and away more critical of aerodynamic "problems" than any I have seen come from X-Plane customers. So they are in fact highly incentivized to develop to a high standard across the board, especially since most devs only produce a couple of aircraft to sell.

In sum, while I'm sure there are X-Plane helos that are objectively superior to DCS helos and vice-versa, my experience seems to match up well to the commentary from IRL pro pilots. And that is mostly that both sims can produce very good results, especially in re rotary wing flight, and both sims have their own peculiar shortcomings in FMs, etc.

I have yet to see anyone who's qualified and has invested time in both sims declare that either sim's addons are simulated to perfection or on in a whole other league, regardless of the level of effort needed to bring an addon to market.

16 hours ago, Humpty said:

It's a XP11 model and if you u are using it under Xp12 then  there will be some issues , from X-trident it's a stability or some issue.

Here is the XP12 thread for the 412 https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/272158-xp12-issues-list/

Have no real experience but I really like the 412 in flight

Yes, of course - in v11 it's great! I'm sure X-Trident will put it right for v12, and it should end up being better/more accurate, too!

3 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

why would the flight model of v12 have been improved so greatly for all aircraft (especially helos)

If it hadn't, I wouldn't have said it, but it did, so I did, and I stand by it.

That isn't just about the ability to take a helicopter off, fly any route in the world (something DCS can't do) and land realistically. It's also everything else, the failure modes, the graphics, the lighting, the real world weather the airport and off airport simulations, and the list goes on....

You will simply never be able to sit in your fav helicopter (regardless of what that is), in your local heliport, (regardless of where that is), and enjoy everything that helicopter has to offer, pros and cons - in DCS; unlike XP that isn't what DCS shoots for.

Others actually try, but they are simply decades away from getting close, because they are decades behind incorporating the expert feedback needed to get to where XP is today.

Edited November 4, 20223 yr by mSparks