The X-Plane difference.

[jcomm 5,991]

Just now, mSparks said:

not familiar with these terms tbh, do you not mean tube and static ports or are they additional?

In the pitot tube, the dynamic component of the system", you have a ram port oriented towards relative wind, and a drain port meant to allow for any water / dust to drain through it... Both can get clogged separately. 

The other(s) as you say are static ports.

So, in practice there can be 3 different ports in a pitot system that can clog independently.

Check my other post at the Hangar forum:

 

[mSparks 2,094]

1 minute ago, jcomm said:

3 different ports in a pitot system that can clog independently.

you mean the water drain in the pitot tube?

isn't the outcome there the same (blocked pitot tube)?

[SAS443 1,729]

11 minutes ago, mSparks said:

not familiar with these terms tbh, do you not mean tube and static ports or are they additional?

Pitot tube usually has an opening for ram air, and a drainage hole. If ram air intake is frozen and drain is not = you'd just have static pressure and ASI will read ZERO. Like when insects decides to build a nest in the tube. This type of freezing pitot error has happened in flightsims for more than 20  years now.

If both intake and drain are blocked, you'd trap the pressure  which will freeze the ASI read-out to whatever it was when blockage occured. So if you climb, your ASI would actually start to indicate a higher airspeed since pressure is decreasing.
 

Edited November 1, 2022 by SAS443

[mSparks 2,094]

4 minutes ago, SAS443 said:

If ram air intake is frozen and drain is not = you'd just have static pressure

ahh forgot you can get static pressure on the tube.

[JRBarrett 3,121]

17 minutes ago, SAS443 said:

If both intake and drain are blocked, you'd trap the pressure  which will freeze the ASI read-out to whatever it was when blockage occured. So if you climb, your ASI would actually start to indicate a higher airspeed since pressure is decreasing.

That caused the loss of a Northwest Airlines 727 in 1974. The pilots stalled the airplane due to erroneous airspeed information from trapped pressure in a frozen pitot tube

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Northwest_Orient_Airlines_Flight_6231

[Murmur 3,944]

18 hours ago, Daube said:

I'm surprised the "other sim" didn't simulate the pitot icing though... What were the exact weather settings you used ?

Thick overcast clouds, max precipitations and around -10C OAT. Flying both under the clouds and in cloud.

 

16 hours ago, efis007 said:

The Maddog for FS9 was (and still is) a masterpiece, superior to Xplane's Rotate MD80.

Yeah I had it too and it was an excellent product (better than the overrated PMDG ones).

The nice thing in XP is that these types of failures are available on every aircraft, including default ones, and generally depicted in an accurate way.

 

15 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

There are numerous videos of "the other sim" acting entirely correctly when the pitot tube freezes over....

I wouldn't link one, since this is not the correct forum, but really.....

I'm in the middle of a 30+ minutes flight with the C172 in the Other Sim and max icing conditions, but the aircraft keeps flying without issues.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Murmur

[UKflyer 630]

love you XP12 😎

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by UKflyer

[Murmur 3,944]

Anyway, the pitot tube blockage was just a specific example.

In hours of careless flying in XP, I experienced: taxiway excursions due to icy pavement, blacking out at altitude due to not setting up the pressurization system, asymmetrical detachment of flaps due to overspeed, over-g'ing and crashing due to thunderstorm turbulence, runway overrun due to aquaplaning, unreliable airspeed due to not activating pitot heat, stalling and crashing due to airframe icing, etc.

Also, in XP I always use the MTBF option for failures. Knowing that any aircraft system (or any external event, like an unexpected microburst) can happen as it would in real life, out of my control, and in a realistic fashion and with the same consequences, increases immersion exponentially.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Murmur

[flying_carpet 658]

5 hours ago, jcomm said:

links please, ...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTyPoEo6XPyTWOTFpi3uZIg

Actually, these videos show the consequences of the builtin failures - they don't show the failure system itself (in great extent).

[OverTheEDJ 266]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:50 PM, Murmur said:

I was doing a back-to-back comparison between XP and some Other Sim to take note of certain potential differences between the two.

 

On 10/31/2022 at 3:50 PM, Murmur said:

Well, my test in XP12 did not last long: suddenly, during the takeoff roll, I noticed to my surprise and disconcert that the airspeed reading froze out: I had forgotten to put anti-ice on, and in the conditions I set, the pitot tube clogged up very quickly. Even though I made the same mistake in the Other Sim a few minutes before, it was inconsequential there and went unnoticed.

The obscure way that you use the term “other sim” coupled with a statement that would lead a reader to believe a specific failure is not represented reeks of hypocrisy when considering the so-called clever quote in your signature. Not to mention a click-bait title where you fail to cite any real difference from any specific platform.

Although XP12 has made some advancements visually, I have been holding off on purchasing XP12 mainly to see if LR will continue consistent updates and improvements beyond the beta stage. I must not be the only one holding off (for various reasons). Just looking at steam charts, I see over 880 avg users on XP11 with only 130 users on XP12.

XP12 needs to first differentiate itself from XP11 regarding LR’s commitment to frequent / ongoing improvements. I think over the last 2 years, the flight sim community has been introduced to a major difference in the developer’s commitment to ongoing improvements in the “other sim”…

[Murmur 3,944]

14 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

The obscure way that you use the term “other sim” coupled with a statement that would lead a reader to believe a specific failure is not represented reeks of hypocrisy when considering the so-called clever quote in your signature. Not to mention a click-bait title where you fail to cite any real difference from any specific platform.

Uh? I explained extensively why I like X-Plane in a subsequent post...:

5 hours ago, Murmur said:

Anyway, the pitot tube blockage was just a specific example.

In hours of careless flying in XP, I experienced: taxiway excursions due to icy pavement, blacking out at altitude due to not setting up the pressurization system, asymmetrical detachment of flaps due to overspeed, over-g'ing and crashing due to thunderstorm turbulence, runway overrun due to aquaplaning, unreliable airspeed due to not activating pitot heat, stalling and crashing due to airframe icing, etc.

Also, in XP I always use the MTBF option for failures. Knowing that any aircraft system (or any external event, like an unexpected microburst) can happen as it would in real life, out of my control, and in a realistic fashion and with the same consequences, increases immersion exponentially.

 

 

14 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Although XP12 has made some advancements visually, I have been holding off on purchasing XP12 mainly to see if LR will continue consistent updates and improvements beyond the beta stage.

Legit. 🤷‍♂️ In any case, LR has had an history of "consistent updates and improvements beyond the beta stage" for decades, at a time when competing sims were freezed in their final version for years.

 

14 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

XP12 needs to first differentiate itself from XP11 regarding LR’s commitment to frequent / ongoing improvements. I think over the last 2 years, the flight sim community has been introduced to a major difference in the developer’s commitment to ongoing improvements in the “other sim”…

Indeed! One could say that, at last, other flight sims are finally applying the commitment to frequent / ongoing improvements that has been a staple of LR for years.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Murmur

[mSparks 2,094]

36 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Although XP12 has made some advancements visually, I have been holding off on purchasing XP12 mainly to see if LR will continue consistent updates and improvements beyond the beta stage.

next major version of XP is already mostly planned.

Post beta but during XP12 we should get at least openxr support and a major update for 3PDs doing cockpit objects like terrain radar and RXPs G750/650.

Subject to gross speculation, and possibly SEC Rule 230.156.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by mSparks

[blingthinger 649]

3 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Not to mention a click-bait title where you fail to cite any real difference from any specific platform.

Nice! You have exceeded expectations as the target demographic. Clicked the bait and posted too! 

 

Murmur's observation below sure looks like a "real difference". At the very least, being able to trigger specific weather conditions and know they will be reliably present to practice on, is enough. I imagine further differences could be noted, but you see, we apparently can't even get there to make them.

9 hours ago, Murmur said:

I'm in the middle of a 30+ minutes flight with the C172 in the Other Sim and max icing conditions, but the aircraft keeps flying without issues.

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by blingthinger

[jcomm 5,991]

Of course there are two kinds of AVSIM forum users - those who know who Murmur is, and those who don't (or even some who pretend they don't)...

Given the apparent recency of @OverTheEDJ I'd say he's on the 2nd group...

Murmur is in the very first place what I would call a REFERENCE in terms of flight simulation. He's posts are usually very precise, unbiased, and as well documented as possible. He's not the kind of person who can start writting about facts he doesn't properly understand or hasn't put to test in a given sim.

In the space of X-Plane Murmur has been making contributions, and offering fundamental criticism about certain aspects of the physics and systems simulations since ever, and we XP users owe him the solution to at least a well known bug that plagued XP for ages - the torque bug! - and caused many long threads to grow here and at the .Org with people complaining about it while others trying to admit it was more than plausible (Austin himself...).

A friend simmer here from AVSIM who I ceased to see posting for quite a while - LAdamnson - was one of the many who continuously complained about how unrealistic the torque effects were in XP9 when Austin started to model them somewhere along v9... Poor Larry, he was frequently object of criticism from XP §anboys.... After all he, just as me and many others, was right! and when Murmur finally turned his attention into the problem and started investigating, he ended up finding the culprit and sensing the evidences to Austin.

This being said, I believe Murmur, just as I myself, can't hide our consideration for some aspects of how XP simulates FLIGHT, and being XP12 a new version, still in early open beta, we're interested in discussing and of course comparing it to other sims, MFS being necessarily a focus too because at least I mysself also use and really like it for many reasons. As such, it's natural that we sometimes like to bring aspects of how XP12 models this or that compared to MFS or other sims...

Edited November 2, 2022 by jcomm

[tonywob 4,770]

Whilst a lot of the things Murmur and Jose are talking about are above my pay grade (I'm just here for the pretty graphics and scenery development ), I believe being able to have a discussion and compare things like this without taking it personally is important in not only improving the sims (via feedback) but also educating people like myself etc about things I'd never even considered.. Indeed, about the worst thing I've experienced whilst flying round is forgetting to check I have enough fuel, and that always ends well.

Anyway, please keep the discussion civilised so this interesting thread doesn't derail and need to be closed.