According to the last video, there is indeed a pitot icing simulation in the other sim, then ?

I'd have to give that another try. How long does it take, in such conditions, to get a frozen pitot ? Is it like "immediately when entering a cloud", or "need to fly in bad conditions for a few minutes" ?

 

12 minutes ago, Daube said:

"need to fly in bad conditions for a few minutes" ?

AIUI the drain freezes more or less instantly (no effect), then the significantly larger ram air hole shortly after, locking the ASI. static wont freeze unless you have significant ice build up all over the airframe locking ALT and VSI.

Edited November 2, 20223 yr by mSparks

On 11/1/2022 at 5:09 PM, Murmur said:

Uh? I explained extensively why I like X-Plane in a subsequent post...:

Irrelevant...your original post was inaccurate and misleading...

 

On 11/1/2022 at 5:09 PM, Murmur said:

Legit. 🤷‍♂️ In any case, LR has had an history of "consistent updates and improvements beyond the beta stage" for decades, at a time when competing sims were freezed in their final version for years.

Right, so these "consistent updates etc." are why LR is just getting to improved "clouds" in 2022?

 

On 11/1/2022 at 5:09 PM, Murmur said:

Indeed! One could say that, at last, other flight sims are finally applying the commitment to frequent / ongoing improvements that has been a staple of LR for years.

So now you are back to square one (like your original post) where you make inaccurate and misleading statements.

.............

Like I said, I am holding off on XP12 for now. I know LR's history of slow updates and stagnate development. XP12 will have to do better in this area.

5 hours ago, Krakin said:

Why don't we deal with what you pointed out in the OP first? Clearly the "other sim" is capable of simulating the specific failure you pointed out in your post. Let us acknowledge that before we move on.

Exactly, this was the premise of my post that he seemingly looked to avoid in his response...but then he makes this statement below..

9 hours ago, Murmur said:

Well I have to disagree there. I think each of us is in some way "biased", and I am too. After all, each of us has his subjective preferences, and we're "biased" toward the product that best meets our preferences. And I have made misjudgements and errors too.

 

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by OverTheEDJ

15 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Irrelevant...your original post was inaccurate and misleading...

Well given that I set maximum icing conditions, the modeling in the other sim seems too slow. In real life, there have been incidents in which the pitot clogged instantly.

Also, if airspeed freezes (=both pitot and static clogged), altimeter and VSI should also freeze to correctly simulate that.

16 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Right, so these "consistent updates etc." are why LR is just getting to improved "clouds" in 2022?

If you only see improved clouds, good for you, certainly I won't be the one to convince you otherwise. 🤷

 

16 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Like I said, I am holding off on XP12 for now. I know LR's history of slow updates and stagnate development. XP12 will have to do better in this area.

We have different opinions on LR updates and development during XP major versions. I'll guess we'll agree to disagree.

24 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

Like I said, I am holding off on XP12 for now.

1700 hours in MSFS, but I am enjoying XP12 so much I rarely go into MSFS now - and I loved MSFS!  admittedly, Ortho, SimHeaven and Global Forrests V2 are needed for the best experience.  Even though many of the clouds need a lot of work, the lighting and colour grading are so good it is well worth a go.

Another prime example of how quickly and readily misinformation gets spread and gobbled up in this community. Y'all need to do better, especially considering you guys seem to demand the highest accuracy in your preferred sim. How about setting the standard of high accuracy in what you say?

@Murmur You are shifting the goalpost now. We've gone from the other sim not modeling it at all, to talking about V/S and other things you never mentioned in your OP. You never said those other instruments locked up in your XP12 test. You want to go test again and perhaps show us a video of it happening? You're quick to say maybe MSFS takes too long to freeze the pitot but what if XP12 is freezing it over too fast???

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

Another prime example of how quickly and readily misinformation gets spread

Im unclear, who is simulating what. Is msfs correctly simulating a locked asi or not?

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

Well given that I set maximum icing conditions, the modeling in the other sim seems too slow. In real life, there have been incidents in which the pitot clogged instantly.

Also, if airspeed freezes (=both pitot and static clogged), altimeter and VSI should also freeze to correctly simulate that.

Your original post was inaccurate and misleading. And when challenged, your subsequent posts look to avoid the same issues that you raised.

 

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

If you only see improved clouds, good for you, certainly I won't be the one to convince you otherwise. 🤷

So you stated that X-Plane had "consistent updates and improvements". In refuting your opinion about improvements, I then pointed out that X-Plane did not get to clouds until 2022. Again, avoiding the original issue, you turn the conversation into me only seeing improved improved clouds (with an emoji to shield for an apparent incoherent response)

 

1 hour ago, Murmur said:

We have different opinions on LR updates and development during XP major versions. I'll guess we'll agree to disagree.

I am not looking for you to agree or disagree...

YOU are not LR (who has a much slower development cycle compared to the other sim). LR is the one who needs to demonstrate that they are serious about frequent & consistent development going forward for me to upgrade.

As I said before, on steam the XP11 users far outnumber the XP12 users; so those XP11 folks are holding off for reasons of their own.

In short, your opinion doesn't matter when it comes to me buying XP12, mine does.....

Shouldn't ASI / Altimeter also freeze if the tube is frozen ?  Shouldn't the ice on the air frame also affect the aircraft ?

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by Humpty

OverTheEDJ: if someone is going off topic, it’s you. There is a fair discussion ongoing here how to test what kind of failures are simulated around the pitot tube. Rendition of clouds, the pace of updates and your willingness to buy or not are irrelevant. 

I continue to see that some of us at times find it difficult to control our emotions... I know about that only too well, and in simming, it translates to an even more childish attitude - uninstalling, for then, after a while, having to reinstall 🙂

My honest oppinion is that both sims are doing their job acceptably in as far as modelling pitot icing effects goes, but none is fully simulating the various effects, and that is something that a true professional / trainning tool has to do - ELITE IFT has, at least since 22 years, been doing it in all possible variants. 

For instance, Murmur states correctly that if a Ram clogging occurs, then if ASI becomes frozen that implies the Static port also froze, but there's a nuance: IF the ASI get's down to zero knot indicated, then:

 

Blocked ram, open drain and static:

A blocked pitot ram port with an open drain is going to give you an airspeed reading of zero because the drain will allow ambient pressure into the pitot, and the pitot pressure will equalize with the static pressure.

In MFS I believe I saw in one of the occasions this happening ( in a G1000-based cockpit ) while in another video I believe I saw the example Murmur mentions:

Blocked ram, drain, and static:

With the ram port, pitot drain, and static port blocked, the airspeed will be frozen on the last accurate reading. Because no pressure changes are occurring, the needle will not move.

Now:

- It's easier in XP12 to set failures of the up to 3 static sources and up to 2 pitots. You do it from the Malfunctions menu, or using an external App. In MFS there is no way of doing this, unless one uses an App made for it, and I don't even know if it is possible to model using only the CORE simulation engine multiple pitot and static systems as in XP12(?)

- It's easier to quantitatively observe the effects of icing as it builds up over the fuselage, windshield, wings, and pitot + static, while in MFS we heve to enable DEV MODE and watch variabes in a huge list displayed in screen.

- In MFS it looks like two different kinds of clogging are modelled without having to force malfunctons: Static clogged vs Satic unclogged, but I have yet to check this more accurately, preferably using a single clcokwork-based instrument panel and running various tests.

- In MFS it is more realistic to watch ice patces starting to form on the wings and other surfaces, and at night with aircraft equipped with "Icing Observation Lights" it is also easier / more realistic, to examine the presence of ice, like IRL.

- In both sims it takes it's time for ice effects to grow up to a level that makes flight dynamics degradation evident. The pace at which both sims do it varies. On most of the tests I ran it was faster in MFS then in XP12 for the same weather situation / place.

Just as I posted yesterday, a well designed simulation of these effects is better than text, and you can actually put to test all of the possible failures using:

luizmonteiro - Online Simulators - Pitot Static System Simulator

This being said.... I think both sims fail as trainning tools for aviation, and this and many other aspects that even platforms where one can make fun of the graphics and even some aspects of "feel of flight", or some aspects of simulation simply being left out because they're not relevant for the purpose of the sim ( ELITE, IFT-PRO, Jeppesen FS 100 & FS 200, ASA On-Top, etc... ), do it in a much more important way for serious trainning. They're games, and they both have their strong points as games, and are developed with more or less hype on some aspects of what and how they simulate this or that, but, they're meant to be used for playing, playing a game!

 

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by jcomm

2 hours ago, Humpty said:

Shouldn't ASI / Altimeter also freeze if the tube is frozen ?  Shouldn't the ice on the air frame also affect the aircraft ?

Nope - ALT only freezes with Static port getting clogged. ASI yes, in various possible ways, like frozen towards ZERO, frozen at last valid speed, acting like an altimeter with higher han / lower then indicated speeds...

Yes - Ice on air frame affects the aircraft,

BUT! 

if Zulfi's flying it, there's no chance Ice can accrete - no way !

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by jcomm

Personally, I agree with "jcomm" on this, that each sim offers something unique and for the hardened flight simmer here's my advice purchase all of them like DCS, P3D, AEROFLY FS4, IL2 and last but not least XP12! as they are all great in their own individual way and MSFS lol

I mentioned P3D (Lockheed Martin) as they have an ace up their sleeve with accurate photogrammetry which might sidestep everyone at some distance point but, this all really depends in what market they are interested in supporting. 

Or maybe check the simulator which I have been looking at "Reentry - An Orbital Simulator" if you really want something different as this guy has put together something truly unique! 🙂  

Getting back to XP12 its early days and I feel everything is heading the right direction.

 

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by ianlighting

17 hours ago, Noel said:

XP was under the same roof for the duration therein lies the giant difference.  The other sim absolutely was not, some code was borrowed, a giant amount of new code brought us to where we are today, 2.2y out from initial release, with a slew of worldwide scenery at no cost to the user, and these don't just happen they take a huge amount of work.

So, you are claiming that the code for FSX (and its predecessors) was property of the games studio which developed them and NOT belonged to Microsoft? A few times times you wrote in your posts "naive me ...". So, yes - you're probably right 😄.
 

17 hours ago, Noel said:

The 'little things', like puddles on the tarmac, or freezing pitot tubes, are the icing to be put on the cake in due time, and they most certainly will.  

I doubt it - at least for the "dangers" of flying (i.e. the really important parts - puddles on the runway are nice to look at, but not essential). Braking distance on wet and icy runways (i.e. friction), falling from the sky due to icing or damaged flaps at overspeed, wake turbulences, microbursts, ... (to name a few), will overwhelm the most users (the ones who "want to fly over their house", the Xbox users, ...) as they won't even understand what went wrong and will wonder "What's wrong with this game? I flew correct (although they didn't) and I'm falling from the sky. I don't like this #%&§ and won't play it any more!!"

 

48 minutes ago, jcomm said:

This being said.... I think both sims fail as trainning tools for aviation, and this and many other aspects that even platforms where one can make fun of the graphics and even some aspects of "feel of flight", or some aspects of simulation simply being left out because they're not relevant for the purpose of the sim ( ELITE, IFT-PRO, Jeppesen FS 100 & FS 200, ASA On-Top, etc... ), do it in a much more important way for serious trainning. They're games, and they both have their strong points as games, and are developed with more or less hype on some aspects of what and how they simulate this or that, but, they're meant to be used for playing, playing a game!

Well, X-Plane isn't only a game but used (I assume for good reasons), e.g. by the NASA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCjwZLzuwH8, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHl40h0uJmI. And there are other examples of RW plane manufacturers using X-Plane. That's what I call (to remain on topic 😁) "The X-Plane difference."

Of course X-Plane (and no other sim will ever) represent reality to 100% - even the million dollar simulations of weather, car crash simulation, you name it, ... don't. But you can get closer and closer to reality.

 

Edited November 3, 20223 yr by flying_carpet