737NG tries XP12 :-)

[SAS443 1,729]

58 minutes ago, strider1 said:

The default 172 no longer slams to ground like that, it did, not sure when it changed. Simcoders needs to fix the nose slamming to the ground, unrealistic. 

Wow, that is actually correct! Wonder when they fixed it. 🙂  Havent flown default 172 for a good while (march, april maybe?)

[Dirk.M 84]

36 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

OTOH, Austin & Co have clearly been working overtime to improve the already legendary flight model (and it shows! 🙂 ). So it's clear that LR feels some pressure now that they didn't much before. And that competitive pressure can only be coming from MSFS...so there must be some quality elements to MSFS' FM...

Sorry, not MSFS is the motivation for Austin to make the flightmodel better.

This is his motivation https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/november/03/x-plane-12-brings-evtol

[mSparks 2,094]

46 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

So it's clear that LR feels some pressure now that they didn't much before.

I suspect it is less pressure, and more a much larger income. 

A lot of microsofts investment in marketting flightsim "rubbed off" on XPlane.

Back in ~2017 when I was desperately searching for a better helicopter flight model for FSX, XPlane was invisible - the only reason I discovered it was

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/52056-robinson-r44-raven-ii/

Turned up in a google search.

Those were not fun days. It was only marginally better in some ways and catastrophically worse in others. Its been 6 years of forehead on the grindstone to get where we are today, and there are still plenty of open real issues.

However these days not comparing the latest flight sim model with an XPlane offering is flightsim heresy.

47 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

and next year the race could become closer than ever before.

next year everyone will be sitting in the wake of

for any aircraft available on that platform.

Not having weapons and combat is going to be such a huge omission on microsofts part that I would be very surprised if it doesnt end up taking 4th or 5th place as the others that do mature.

The "can never go back to 2D" crowd is still in its infancy, with the hardware and software due to drop in the very near future (e.g. Apple Vision) they will very, very quickly become the vocal majority.

[UrgentSiesta 942]

17 minutes ago, mSparks said:

I suspect it is less pressure, and more a much larger income. 

A lot of microsofts investment in marketting flightsim "rubbed off" on XPlane.

Back in ~2017 when I was desperately searching for a better helicopter flight model for FSX, XPlane was invisible - the only reason I discovered it was

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/52056-robinson-r44-raven-ii/

Turned up in a google search.

Those were not fun days. It was only marginally better in some ways and catastrophically worse in others. Its been 6 years of forehead on the grindstone to get where we are today, and there are still plenty of open real issues.

However these days not comparing the latest flight sim model with an XPlane offering is flightsim heresy.

next year everyone will be sitting in the wake of

for any aircraft available on that platform.

Not having weapons and combat is going to be such a huge omission on microsofts part that I would be very surprised if it doesnt end up taking 4th or 5th place as the others that do mature.

The "can never go back to 2D" crowd is still in its infancy, with the hardware and software due to drop in the very near future (e.g. Apple Vision) they will very, very quickly become the vocal majority.

Obviously, I can't be sure, but from my perspective, XP has advanced further and faster ever since MSFS came on the scene.

I know Austin & Co were improving the sim, but it seems like v12 is simply a quantum leap over v11 in all regards, including many substantial upgrades to the FM to cover areas historically "ignored".

Perhaps that is because of a halo effect from MSFS' success, but we also know LR have doubled their headcount (or more) in the recent past. And Austin said all that is mainly going towards graphics. And THAT can only be in response to MSFS...

In any case, I'm loving the results!

And I don't wanna argue with you, but I honestly believe Aces of Thunder isn't going to amount to much relative to general flight sim for the same reason War Thunder hasn't.

And while I'm perfectly wiling to run multiple flight sims, i'm categorically NOT going to run multiple gaming rigs, as Aces of Thunder will require. (unless the advantages prove to be compelling enough to overcome the very real $$ & space issues of same)

We'll see what they release - the better it is, the more competition in the market place, and the more pressure for all flight sim developers to continualy improve.

p.s.: I hope MS/Asobo release a forked MSFS to become the Combat Flight Simulator redux. Would be fantastic 🙂

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by UrgentSiesta

[blingthinger 649]

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

The "balsa glider" analogy is indeed apt. However, Seb directly said that primitive FM shape is going to the dust bin with v2024.

Somewhat yes, but not enough to make a huge difference. These videos are actually the perfect comparison to prove this point. Of all the airframes one could and should expect to be predicted well by 2020, the C172 is it: straight wings with ailerons on the outer span, boxy fuselage, traditional empennage. This is the metal version of the balsa glider and it still doesn't pull through all the way in any of the metrics in the video. 

2024 will up the ante some, but they're still hog-tied to the FSX tables. To their bit of credit, they have no choice there because the CFD isn't and still won't be good enough to stand on its own, even after the fuselage bump up. Fuselage aside, what really matters are the airfoils. No changes being made there.

[UrgentSiesta 942]

3 hours ago, Dirk.M said:

Sorry, not MSFS is the motivation for Austin to make the flightmodel better.

This is his motivation https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/november/03/x-plane-12-brings-evtol

this is a GREAT point, but Austin himself has said most of his spending is now solely on graphics improvements - an area that matters little to engineering simulations.

Edited July 17, 2023 by UrgentSiesta
I dont think that's a sim screen shot ;)

[mSparks 2,094]

53 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

And I don't wanna argue with you, but I honestly believe Aces of Thunder isn't going to amount to much relative to general flight sim for the same reason War Thunder hasn't.

War thunder has pretty much zero sim aspect, its 100% game.

And I mean that in a way that is fairly easy to measure. There is nothing in War Thunder that translates in any meaningful way to anything "real world".

Aces of thunder, otoh, is going to be (as far as it is pitched so far), a more or less true recreation of what it was like to be thrown in a cockpit of a warbird at the start of WWIi, but also mixed with all the game developer knowledge of what makes people keep coming back for more.

You can get a small taste of what that is like now taking

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/47097-supermarine-spitfire-mk-ix/

up in VR.

just taking off and landing safely is 100% adrenaline. 

With the quality control Sony demands, the experience the war thunder team bring to the genre and the truly generational leap of PSVR2, I have little doubt it will be a block buster - one that feeds a fairly decent number of people into titles like XPlane and DCS, but to be remotely competitive we are going to need the likes of Varjo to bring the price of their inferior but competitive headset down from the $8500 + $1500 annual subscription it is now...

Not least because absolutely no one who gets hooked on aces of thunder will ever go back to 2D either.

Edited July 16, 2023 by mSparks

[DD_Arthur 1,091]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

next year everyone will be sitting in the wake of

for any aircraft available on that platform 

?

To replicate the flight model of War Thunder:

Take one large cardboard box.

Cut a hole in each side of the box.

Sit in the box and put your arms through the holes.

Flap.

 

[Bob Scott 7,745]

OK guys, back to the topic please.

[mSparks 2,094]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

?

To replicate the flight model of War Thunder:

Take one large cardboard box.

Cut a hole in each side of the box.

Sit in the box and put your arms through the holes.

Flap.

 

expectation is the AOT flight model will be based on similar "CFD lite" tech that MS just spent the last 12-18 months retrofitting to MSFS, but Gaijin really do have a near unlimited budget for their expansion into flight sim, due to the income stream of already having hundreds of millions of current, active, present day "pilots". All of which will surely get hit with in game marketing for it once it launches.

The video comparison follow up of the OP is a perfect example of what to expect out of that endeavour - will their flight model be perfect; obviously not they never are, but I would be very, very surprised if the Gaijin developers do not already have commercial xplane licences to help dial it in...

do you honestly think it will be bad enough that anyone can justify spending $10,000 on a varjoXR for an equal level of realism in every other respect.... especially after watching

On 7/15/2023 at 1:06 PM, markk70 said:

Follow-up video.

 

imho, the only people who care about those differences are those who are already engaged or plan to begin real world training.

And no, crop dusting in ms2024 will absolutely not compete with it.

Edited July 17, 2023 by mSparks

[blingthinger 649]

Here's something I'm wondering: why is 737NG (a PMDG dev and "poster child") promoting XP in ANY capacity? At all. For any reason? This isn't going to ramp up views and subscribers in any meaningful way. He specifically said that he's not bringing XP12 into his regular video rotation.

I'm certain he already knows the outcome of his Zibo vs PMDG video. Flightdeck2sim has run that to the ground and has publicly called out 737NG various times.

This doesn't help him or the product he promotes in any way that I can see. He could just continue ignoring the requests for comparisons and be just fine. Someone in the comments even brought up the hope that 2024 FM will improve on some of his observations. He brushed that off with (paraphrasing)  "based on what I've seen in the 2020 run, I'm not holding my breath".

[JRBarrett 3,122]

1 hour ago, blingthinger said:

Here's something I'm wondering: why is 737NG (a PMDG dev and "poster child") promoting XP in ANY capacity? At all. For any reason? This isn't going to ramp up views and subscribers in any meaningful way. He specifically said that he's not bringing XP12 into his regular video rotation.

He is definitely not not a “PMDG Dev” nor employed by PMDG. He has stated more than once that he is not paid by PMDG other than by getting free early access to their products for testing. He is one of their professional “tech” advisors as a r/w 737NG pilot.

I don’t think he feels obligated to always promote PMDG first and foremost above all others. In addition to his PMDG tutorials, he has done videos featuring and testing the ATR, the AAU2 787-10 and the Fenix Airbus.

He enjoys sharing his r/w aviation knowledge and experience as applied to flight simulation, and is an excellent communicator. It appears in his latest videos that he is trying to fairly compare the flight models of the two sims (XP and MSFS) as much to satisfy his own curiosity as anything else, as he previously had little experience with XP.

He does not appear of the mindset that is so common on these forums when it comes to XP vs. MSFS that one sim has to “win” and the other “lose”. That you cannot support the one without denigrating the other.

Edited July 17, 2023 by JRBarrett

[GoranM 3,792]

4 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

He does not appear of the mindset that is so common on these forums when it comes to XP vs. MSFS that one sim has to “win” and the other “lose”. That you cannot support the one without denigrating the other.

You must be kidding.  Really?

I suppose we have to stop invading other forums and talking about how bad all the other flight sims are, on a regular basis, and start telling everyone in the MSFS forums how wrong they are, and how revolutionary everything in X-Plane is.

Edited July 17, 2023 by GoranM

[SAS443 1,729]

13 hours ago, snglecoil said:

but honestly, as far as 172s go, the defaults in either sim are fine. None are perfect by any means but they they are close enough given limitations in typical home sim controls. 

As far a the real 172 being “floaty,” I personally find it can be a very floaty airplane in the flare. Maybe that is due to the fact that a full stall landing attitude is somewhat more nose high that other popular planes in the single engine trainer class.

matches my experience as well, regarding the default cessnas in both sims.
 I even commented on the float characteristics of the C172S and was met with utter surprise by one of the resident FM-experts in this thread. 
"But it shouldn't do that! It doesnt happen like that in X-plane at all, or that one time I flew my friends Cessna"

Edited July 17, 2023 by SAS443

[mSparks 2,094]

6 hours ago, blingthinger said:

Here's something I'm wondering: why is 737NG (a PMDG dev and "poster child") promoting XP in ANY capacity? At all. For any reason? This isn't going to ramp up views and subscribers in any meaningful way. He specifically said that he's not bringing XP12 into his regular video rotation.

 

Maybe the truth of the "people asked me in the comments what I think about XPlane" line was actually "a friend in PMDG asked me what I thought about XPlane".

Considering past PMDG offerings were basically universally praised, we've discussed before that they cant be that pleased with the criticism they have been getting for their latest releases through no fault of their own.

Could be the first rumblings of them coming back to XPlane.

5 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

He is definitely not not a “PMDG Dev” nor employed by PMDG

well, depends on your definition of dev I guess, his most popular videos are PMDG tutorials, whatever the specifics it seems there is a close relationship with the PMDG team.