737NG tries XP12 :-)

[Bulva 98]

 

[snglecoil 1,828]

2 hours ago, SAS443 said:

matches my experience as well, regarding the default cessnas in both sims.
 I even commented on the float characteristics of the C172S and was met with utter surprise by one of the resident FM-experts in this thread. 
"But it shouldn't do that! It doesnt happen like that in X-plane at all, or that one time I flew my friends Cessna"

Meh…I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I have a few thousand hours in 22 different types. I may have enough experience to form a reasonable opinion of a flight model on maybe 3-4 of the types I’ve flown and still be off base in my judgment. I think most simmers here expend way too much emotional energy on the subject. I’ve yet to find any sim that “flies” exactly like the real thing across every regime…but it’s good enough for what it is. 

[jcomm 5,997]

3 hours ago, snglecoil said:

Meh…I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I have a few thousand hours in 22 different types. I may have enough experience to form a reasonable opinion of a flight model on maybe 3-4 of the types I’ve flown and still be off base in my judgment. I think most simmers here expend way too much emotional energy on the subject. I’ve yet to find any sim that “flies” exactly like the real thing across every regime…but it’s good enough for what it is. 

Not to mention the feel of force feedback on the controls of the real thing vs sim.... It's, under most circumstances, so so so different and so important in terms of "feeling like flying the real thing..."

 

[blingthinger 649]

10 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

He is definitely not not a “PMDG Dev” nor employed by PMDG. He has stated more than once that he is not paid by PMDG other than by getting free early access to their products for testing. He is one of their professional “tech” advisors as a r/w 737NG pilot.

Ah, good clarification. For some reason I thought he was working for them in some capacity.

I still find it odd though. I doubt he's actually curious and these are things he could prove to himself in private without rocking any boats.

 

6 hours ago, SAS443 said:

I even commented on the float characteristics of the C172S and was met with utter surprise by one of the resident FM-experts in this thread.

Still avoiding presenting the facts? Instead all we get are half-a$$ kid vids (bless their hearts) that actually still prove contrary to your mumbling. My opinions aside, you continue to fail to address 737NG's own statements. My fluff doesn't matter. We all know that. Right now it's your word against a well-respected ATP. He's got far more internet street cred than you do.

I'm stunned that folks like you haven't taken this to the level of data-collection. You claim to have regular access to the airframe. What's stopping you from slapping a few arduino accelerometers and gopros to the cabin windows and proving everyone wrong? All us plebs get is gum-flapping and ego trips. Stretch your wings for us all!

[blingthinger 649]

5 hours ago, mSparks said:

"a friend in PMDG asked me what I thought about XPlane".

Randazzo's bored already.

[DD_Arthur 1,091]

17 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

My fluff doesn't matter. We all know that. 

‘Twas ne’er a truer word spoken nor line written 👍

[blingthinger 649]

35 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

‘Twas ne’er a truer word spoken nor line written 👍

Ahhh, but you do love it, don't you.

[snglecoil 1,828]

4 hours ago, blingthinger said:

Right now it's your word against a well-respected ATP. He's got far more internet street cred than you do.

What is the issue in question? That a Cessna 172 drops onto the runway when you pull power to idle?

If that’s the question at hand, it’s likely an issue of technique. Someone accustomed to landing a transport category jet is going to set the landing attitude, reduce thrust to idle, and allow the plane to settle on the runway without significantly increasing nose up attitude. If you do that in a Cessna 172, it will in fact “drop” onto the runway. If, however, you reduce power to idle and then continue to increase angle of attack and “hold it off” as long as you can, the plane will float a greater distance. So you see, both results can be true depending on technique.

I don’t doubt for a second Mr. 737NG’s experience or credibility. But when is the last time he actually flew a Cessna 172? I will say from my own experience helping airline pilots get back into GA flying a year or so ago as well as my own transition into a regional jet, those old techniques fall away more quickly than you realize. Don’t be so quick to discount the experience of @SAS443. The recency of their experience may hold just as much weight as our YouTube internet guru.

[ryanbatc 13,033]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:57 AM, Franz007 said:

Seriously what I find the most concerning, is the amount of negative comments about XP. I am myself not 100% satisfied with XP yet but the extreme negative critics and even complete lies and mockery about XP in the YT-comments are something I would like to understand better. And we see the same 3-4 toxic trolls attacking everyone who like XP and spreading hate. tried to got they banned but wasn’t succesfull. I have no issue with persons prefering sim A over sim B but the toxicity is ruining the constructive exchanges. That’s extremely disappointing tbh 😞

This literally happens on every sim forum.  You'll find a very small minority of people that make it their agenda to trash talk another sim in that sim's forum.  I think these people just need more attention in life??

[jcomm 5,997]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8vWUYESfGc

Zibo 1st short test  😁

Edited July 17, 2023 by jcomm
Typos

[blingthinger 649]

3 hours ago, snglecoil said:

So you see, both results can be true depending on technique.

I don’t doubt for a second Mr. 737NG’s experience or credibility. But when is the last time he actually flew a Cessna 172? I will say from my own experience helping airline pilots get back into GA flying a year or so ago as well as my own transition into a regional jet, those old techniques fall away more quickly than you realize. Don’t be so quick to discount the experience of @SAS443. The recency of their experience may hold just as much weight as our YouTube internet guru.

A great explanation for the drop that both 737NG and I have experienced just before flare. And one that I was trying to tease out of sas443. The foot-stomp was that "it doesn't do that", which is why I was looking for better camera views and/or approach velocity information, only to be ridiculed. There are more variables at play that do indeed allow for that behavior on approach.

I'm not discounting anyone's experience. I'm asking for more data than "oh, that dude's just wrong", which is a common theme around these parts. Especially given that said dude is widely acknowledged to be an experienced pilot, rusty ATP or not.

Edited July 17, 2023 by blingthinger

[SAS443 1,729]

6 hours ago, snglecoil said:

set the landing attitude, reduce thrust to idle, and allow the plane to settle on the runway without significantly increasing nose up attitude.

 

2 hours ago, blingthinger said:

A great explanation for the drop that both 737NG and I have experienced just before flare

Unfortunately for @blingthinger, this is not what 737NG is doing in his videos. He flies conventional GA approach/landing.

1) Flat pitch (as opposed to setting landing attitude)

2) Power to idle (yes, for both techniques)

3) increases pitch by flaring (as opposed to simply maintain attitude that was set in step one)

But you can observe he lands the LR c172 hot, around 53 kts in the XP/MSFS comparison clip due to not applying enough backpressure. VSO fully loaded is 40 kts as reference.

Now, I am totally certain he knows how to land a simple Cessna - probably more proficient than me. That is not really the point. 

The point is, what 737NG is actually doing, is the conventional hold it off technique. And that one - as @snglecoil pointed out - shouldn't really induce the seat falls thru the floor sensation Blingthinger speaks so fondly about from his Cessna ride and what it seem he uses to assess how a real GA should behave/feel. 

[blingthinger 649]

1 hour ago, SAS443 said:

how a real GA should behave/feel.

Mmm, I'm not the one who tried earlier to lump a low wing into the same handling category as a high wing, trying to pass it of as if they all behave the same. That was you.

So do tell us: What approach conditions would induce the drop when cutting power to idle? Because as we all know this isn't about me, as much as your batch of windbagging condescension keeps trying to imply. This is about you disagreeing with 737NG. What do you attribute his assessment to? You say "shouldn't" lead to the drop, which isn't 100% of the time. Under what conditions could this happen, or even be expected to happen? He's adamant that it does happen under the conditions in the video and as you say, probably has much more experience than you.

And another question: which sim necessitates a more accurate backpressure movement given their energy states (IAS, V/S, AGL) when throttle goes to idle? The yokes are clearly visible in both. 2020 hardly moves. XP has to move quite a bit and still wasn't enough to prevent a bit of a thump. Deceleration is quite similar after power is pulled back.

Edited July 18, 2023 by blingthinger

[jcomm 5,997]

Well,

interesting arguments from both above + 737 NG's latest video on the Zibo 738....

I confess that I myself feel that "piano" fall when I wanted a nice flare and touchdown, not on all but in many aircraft in X-Plane, starting XP11 along the various updates and since the "inception" of XP12.

A great friend who I recently pushed into getting back to MFS and enjoying what that sim has to offer ( looks and functionality above all ) remarked about his landings all felt like stone landings in XP12, and were now back to normal in MFS...

Now, MFS is surely not a good reference in terms of aerodynamics, at least compared to XP12. It's ground effect physics is way overdone on pretty much all aircraft I have tried there, but I would be tempted to say the most realistic should be somehow between MFS and XP.... I remember my landing in Aerofly FS 2 and I did find them pretty realistic - whatever that means since I have never landed a prop aircraft .... 

In gliders my landings, unless I want to travel to the opposite side of the runway for operational reasons, are usually positive. I don't float o any of the gliders I fly presently (not many unfortunately, 2 LS1s, a Phoebus B and a Grob 103 Twin Acro), and "surprisingly" in XP12 landing the default K-21 and the recently released PIK-20 mod Masterpiece by @cmemory feels word not allowed realistic to me ! 

Might the difference be in the propwash? But then how would I explain that that same "piano drop" sensation is also present in airliners ? Might it be some quirk with the latest tuning of ground effect by Austin ? Might it just be the fact that I never really landed an engined aircraft IRL ?

Maybe one day I can pay for a Cessna 172 ride with a certified instructor and try to land it 🙂 convincing the guy that 42+ years flying gliders should give me some insight into how to land a Cessna 😉 

Until then, I tend to adhere to the evaluations done by RW pilots of similar aircraft, but heck 😕  even these can differ...

 

[mSparks 2,094]

My 2c

What these guys said

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/10_afh_ch9.pdf

And anyone who wants to disagree with them on this one is probably going to lose the argument.