Official. XP12 has outsold XP11!

[brinx 276]

4 hours ago, GoranM said:

The fact remains, XBox is a gaming console.  It always has been.  It always will be.  It's a great way to get extra dollars flowing in for Asobo, but I wouldn't put it in the "serious simmer" category.  Not by a long shot.  Same with X-Plane for mobile.

I'm quite curious. What is required to be considered a serious simmer in your eyes. Do you need to be able to afford certain hardware to be considered a serious simmer. Can one be considered a serious simmer if they can only afford a $500 budget PC, where they have to turn the graphics all the way down to run it smoothly?

It makes perfect sense that a simulator would run on a gaming console. Simulators like MSFS, X-plane, Assetto corsa, Grand Turismo and others are by nature videos games. They are a special category of video games that simulate the real world. X-Plane/MSFS/P3D fall under the simulation video game category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_video_game. The binary code does not care if it is being executed on a dedicated gaming console or a multitasking PC. It is still simulating the same physics. In fact, a gaming console is more optimized for games whereas a PC is Multitasking Device. Maybe, its the input devices why they are not serious simmers? I use the same "Thrustmaster TCA Captain Joystick" for both my $3K pc and $500 Console. I also use the same famous "Thrustmaster TCA Boeing yoke" on both. Yes, there a few limitations due to the security on console but it does not prevent you from taking the hobby seriously. This argument is the equivalent of saying someone using Linux is not a serious simmer due to some limitations.

4 hours ago, GoranM said:

It's a great way to get extra dollars flowing in for Asobo

 it's also a great way to get money flowing into the pockets of 3rd developers also. It's a great way to expand the flight simulation community.  It's a great way to get new folks into the hobby who otherwise could not afford a capable PC.

4 hours ago, GoranM said:

Same with X-Plane for mobile.  Great for injecting dollars.  But serious simming?  Not quite.

You have a point about mobile devices only for the fact that there are no good input devices for a mobile. A mobile device and a xbox are not even remotely in the same category though.

Edited February 15 by brinx

[brinx 276]

12 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

One can use A2A or PMDG aircraft with a Throttle/Yoke combo on a 55" TV and good quality visuals using an Xbox for less than what a high-end graphics card would cost. Is this possible when using a phone?

And runs at 4k 30fps too. The argument is impossible to understand.

[Franz007 500]

35 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

One can use A2A or PMDG aircraft with a Throttle/Yoke combo on a 55" TV and good quality visuals using an Xbox for less than what a high-end graphics card would cost. Is this possible when using a phone?

Do you know how many % of all XBox-users who may have tried that sim with a gamepass or whatever have such an installation to run the sim? We are speaking about the majority/tendency and not the exception. Those who really discover a true passion by having started with an XBox will end up using a PC anyway, to get the max out of it.

Edited February 15 by Franz007

[Franz007 500]

@brinx

Of course a few XBox-users may take it seriously and be interested in aviation-simulation more than just from a « gaming »-perspective. I would absolutely count them as part of the others. But we don’t have any statistics about those resp. I think they are the ones being represented in the navigraph-survey and show that they are an infinite small community.

[GoranM 3,772]

1 hour ago, brinx said:

What is required to be considered a serious simmer in your eyes.

"Serious simmer" is a heavily subjective term.  MY opinion is that XBox is more for gaming.  I can't PICTURE a serious simmer, with charts, yokes, rudder pedals on an XBox.  There are simmers far more serious than me, and I do this for a living.  That's fine by me.  It really is no skin off my nose.  As long as people are happy with what I make, that's all I care about.  Use it on XBox, PS5, an iPhone.  I don't care.  

I've seen more than my fair share of people bragging about the amount of money they've spent on hardware to run the latest version of MSFS.  This wasn't the point of my post.  My whole point was we can have differing opinions, WITHOUT being labelled "ignor*nt".

1 hour ago, brinx said:

it's also a great way to get money flowing into the pockets of 3rd developers also. It's a great way to expand the flight simulation community.  It's a great way to get new folks into the hobby who otherwise could not afford a capable PC.

Sure.  I don't disagree with that at all.  My point remains.  I can't picture serious flight simmers on an XBox or an iPhone.  My only memory of XBox is from a documentary on indie game developers (conveniently titled Indie Game), where one of the games was called "Super Meat Boy" and it was sold on XBox.  Maybe that's part of what is forming my opinion.  I don't know.  If MSFS or XBox users are offended by me not considering XBox a viable "serious" flight simmer platform, then I think the issue is with them.  In other words, why would they care?  All that matters is what makes THEM satisfied, no?

1 hour ago, brinx said:

A mobile device and a xbox are not even remotely in the same category though.

The fact that they are an alternative to running the software on a PC, I'd say they are.  It's just an opinion.  Anyone is free to disagree, and I'm happy to have a discussion on it.  But inserting the word "arrogance" when I have a differing opinion, no.  

 

Just to add to...

If MSFS or XBox users are offended by me not considering XBox a viable "serious" flight simmer platform, then I think the issue is with them.  In other words, why would they care?  All that matters is what makes THEM satisfied, no?

I frequent the MSFS forums in here, pretty much daily.  I've seen, on many occasions in the MSFS forums here, people criticizing others who are Mac users.  That they're stupid for spending so much money on a glorified PC, when a Windows PC is more than enough.  I've had a MacBook Pro since 2019.  Do you think I care what someone else says about a MacBook Pro user?  It's useful to me.  It's fast.  Efficient.  Stable.  And it seamlessly integrates into my Apple environment.  In other words, I'm happy with it.  If someone thinks I'm wrong or "stupid" for spending the amount of money I do on it, it really doesn't bother me.  I'd rather have a discussion on it, but the moment an insult gets thrown out, I know a discussion is pointless.

Edited February 15 by GoranM

[GoranM 3,772]

1 hour ago, GCBraun said:

One can use A2A or PMDG aircraft with a Throttle/Yoke combo on a 55" TV and good quality visuals using an Xbox for less than what a high-end graphics card would cost. Is this possible when using a phone?

Of course not.  X-Plane isn't made for XBox.  I can, however, run X-Plane on my 85" TV with an HDMI cable running from my MacBook Pro. The iPhone version is, as I said, meant for a little bit of time passing fun.  That's MY opinion.  Even though the mobile version is very, very close to the desktop version.  The limiting factor is external hardware.

Again, that wasn't my point.  We all have an opinion.  Just don't insult someone if their opinion is different to yours.  That's all.

Edited February 15 by GoranM

[tonywob 4,770]

27 minutes ago, GoranM said:

I frequent the MSFS forums in here, pretty much daily.  I've seen, on many occasions in the MSFS forums here, people criticizing others who are Mac users.  That they're stupid for spending so much money on a glorified PC, when a Windows PC is more than enough.  I've had a MacBook Pro since 2019.  Do you think I care what someone else says about a MacBook Pro user?

I've been using macs exclusively since OS X came out years ago (and Windows 2000 was new). I hear this a lot as well with people shocked or calling me an idiot for spending that amount of money on a computer that can't run most games. It's never been a problem for me and I'm hugely more productive on a mac than I am on a cheaper Windows machine. The first Intel-chip Macbook (that replaced the powerbooks) is now being used by my mother-in-law, and that amazes me it's still going and the battery works after almost 12 years. My M2 Macbook Pro was very expensive, but it also has saved me so much time in terms of how fast it works, that it's paid for itself.

33 minutes ago, GoranM said:

"Serious simmer" is a heavily subjective term.  MY opinion is that XBox is more for gaming

For me, the difference between a serious simmer and casual-simmer/gamer is a relatively simple and not dependent on the hardware they use. A serious simmer goes through checklists to start up a Cessna 172 and plans a flight, the other hits Ctrl+E and flies around for a bit and quits without even landing (I switch between both depending on the mood I'm in)

[threexgreen 3,142]

10 hours ago, Franz007 said:

It’s a platform made for casual-gaming and attracts the community related to it that is mostly based on visuals and needing hype after hype to keep being distracted. That’s why Asobo focussed almost only on stuff for them rather than investing into the core-sim. Some updates are also technically limited because they have to fit into the XBox-world.

The same argument can be made for PC users. SeriousSimmers on PC are a niche and the vast majority of people use their PC for work - or gaming, playing the same casual games you play on Xbox, and there are enough simmers who aren't taking it all that serious on PC too. Ultimately, the point is just that Xbox isn't this blemish that the purists like to see it as.

I won't get into this much because it's not the forum for it, but the argument that Asobo are almost exclusively focused on Xbox is factually false. The majority of development and updates are focused entirely on PC, and that's really quite obvious from updates and changelogs. Things like hiring the Sturmovik guy to work on aerodynamics or WT for advanced avionics, working on ground friction or SDK development to facilitate deeper aircraft simulation don't exactly strike me as something geared towards the Xbox crowd.  Xbox has never seen anywhere close to the attention that PC is getting, and it was a long time until Asobo even started to bring stuff from PC to Xbox. Development for both platforms is causing hurdles too, no doubt, but the argument doesn't hold up. 

1 hour ago, Franz007 said:

Do you know how many % of all XBox-users who may have tried that sim with a gamepass or whatever have such an installation to run the sim? We are speaking about the majority/tendency and not the exception. Those who really discover a true passion by having started with an XBox will end up using a PC anyway, to get the max out of it.

Keep in mind that MSFS is the first sim to even be available on Xbox, so for any seasoned simmer there was never even another option. What you see in forums like Avsim, people with high-end hardware, is not the whole picture. Not everyone can or wants to spend so much on hardware, so Xbox can actually be a good alternative. I see more of an issue in software availability, with many third-party addons not being developed for Xbox, than hardware. The latter is definitely not an issue.

Again, I don't mean to derail this too much towards MSFS in the XP forum.

[Humpty 751]

on a computer it's a game.  

[UrgentSiesta 932]

15 hours ago, mSparks said:

windows PC tho.

All the disadvantages of a console

All the disadvantages of windows.

Xbox would have been an easy sell if it offered VR, but since it didnt it was already obsolete before it hit the shelves.

Convinced themselves VR didnt matter. Now they are all being outsold by a website company selling 100% VR experiences on low end linux devices.

Left hand wondering what the right hand is doing.

while the rest of the industry and users leaves them behind.

 

 

You do realize you're pimping War Thunder and it's apparently dumber cousin, right?

Fantastic visuals overlaid on craptastic flight models and virtually non-existant systems is very much lipstick on a pig.

If the base sim doesn't offer a realistic flight experience I couldn't be less interested. And both of those...don't.

[UrgentSiesta 932]

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

Ignorance?

Ok, for the record, I personally think anyone who uses X-Plane on a phone is not "serious".  I have it on my iPhone.  Even my DC3 is available for the mobile version of X-Plane.  And I still don't consider it a "serious" flight simming platform.  It's something I may use, from time to time to pass the time on a flight or a road trip.  

The fact remains, XBox is a gaming console.  It always has been.  It always will be.  It's a great way to get extra dollars flowing in for Asobo, but I wouldn't put it in the "serious simmer" category.  Not by a long shot.  Same with X-Plane for mobile.  Great for injecting dollars.  But serious simming?  Not quite.

Lumping Xbox in with mobile gaming is a spurious position to take.

With the advent of MSFS on Xbox, there are now fairly complete flight sim setups possible.

So, if you can fly A2A Sims Comanche or PMDG's 737 on Xbox, using yoke/joystick, rudder pedals and throttle, is that not serious enough for you, somehow?

eta: apparently i'm in good company given all the other similar answers.

Edited February 15 by UrgentSiesta

[mSparks 2,086]

17 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

War Thunder and it's apparently dumber cousin, right?

"Aces of thunder uses the accurate flight and models from war thunder".

If we going for a "Argumentum ad populum"

As of November 1, 2022

https://worthplaying.com/article/2022/11/1/news/134502-war-thunder-celebrates-its-10th-anniversary-with-new-content-freebies-and-activities/

"Currently, the number of concurrent War Thunder users regularly exceeds 160 thousand people at any given time, and in total, more than 70 million players from all over the world are registered in the game."

Numbers even Microsoft can only dream of in their wettest of wet dreams.

4 hours ago, GCBraun said:

One can use A2A or PMDG aircraft with a Throttle/Yoke combo on a 55" TV and good quality visuals using an Xbox for less than what a high-end graphics card would cost. Is this possible when using a phone?

Are you asking if you can use Xplane mobile on a TV, or A2A/PMDG on xplane mobile?

The answer to first is "yes, on any smart TV bought in the last 10 years"

The answer to the second is... well, first they will need to support anything other than windows boxes, but companies like that stick with what they know, contrary to popular belief they don't go where the money is (otherwise they would probably be good enough to have 70 million users of their own).

Edited February 15 by mSparks

[GoranM 3,772]

7 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Lumping Xbox in with mobile gaming is a spurious position to take.

With the advent of MSFS on Xbox, there are now fairly complete flight sim setups possible.

So, if you can fly A2A Sims Comanche or PMDG's 737 on Xbox, using yoke/joystick, rudder pedals and throttle, is that not serious enough for you, somehow?

eta: apparently i'm in good company given all the other similar answers.

Again, my point was for people to reel in the insults if someone has a different opinion. I just don’t hold a gaming console to such high regard. 
or maybe it’s because I can’t port the TBM to Xbox. 😉

[Sethos 4,364]

1 hour ago, UrgentSiesta said:

You do realize you're pimping War Thunder and it's apparently dumber cousin, right?

Fantastic visuals overlaid on craptastic flight models and virtually non-existant systems is very much lipstick on a pig.

If the base sim doesn't offer a realistic flight experience I couldn't be less interested. And both of those...don't.

Plus, War Thunder has ships and tanks as well, so very disingenuous to use a F2P game with 3 different completely different modules of gameplay, like it's only pulling those numbers because of the flying.

[Murmur 3,944]

3 hours ago, tonywob said:

For me, the difference between a serious simmer and casual-simmer/gamer is a relatively simple and not dependent on the hardware they use. A serious simmer goes through checklists to start up a Cessna 172 and plans a flight, the other hits Ctrl+E and flies around for a bit and quits without even landing

I'm a third kind, I'm an experimental simmer: just test-flying, test-landing and test-failing every aircraft to their limits. 😆