PMDG 737 flight model question

[CanadaOne 36]

42 minutes ago, UrgentSiesta said:

At $36, the 736 is without a doubt the best bang for your buck of any airliner addon in any sim.

Heck, it might be for any addon in any sim...

 

I love this thing! Darn good fun. The module feels tight and precise. I haven't bought many planes for MSFS because everything felt a bit mushy to me in this sim. I'm used to dropping $100 for DCS planes because I find they feel precise. This thing is giving me that same feeling of quality and for only $45. I know I'm late to the game on the PMDG stuff, but it's still quite something. And the HUD is great.

 

I may park my F-15E for a while and be an airliner nerd. 🤪

Edited February 26 by CanadaOne
bad word

[UrgentSiesta 936]

1 minute ago, CanadaOne said:

 

I love this thing! word not allowed good fun. The module feels tight and precise. I haven't bought many planes for MSFS because everything felt a bit mushy to me in this sim. I'm used to dropping $100 for DCS planes because I find they feel precise. This thing is giving me that same feeling of quality and for only $45. I know I'm late to the game on the PMDG stuff, but it's still quite something. And the HUD is great.

 

I may park my F-15E for a while and be an airliner nerd. 🤪

I love the Streagle myself - stunningly well done. And as long as you don't fly the 737 like a Strike Eagle you'll be very satisfied. 😁

If you're ever looking for a similar quality GA aircraft, go no further than the A2A Sims Comanche.

[Greazer 1,338]

Pmdg 737 flight model is junk, compared to Zibo. Simple example: if you are about to touch down with idle thrust and you pull back on yoke, it will immediately  nose up and start to climb. This is obviously so broken because it's impossible IRL. 

Edited February 26 by Greazer

[sd_flyer 6,073]

1 hour ago, Greazer said:

This is obviously so broken because it's impossible IRL. 

Why not?

[jcomm 5,961]

6 hours ago, CanadaOne said:

I grabbed the 737-600. The price was right and I'll wait for the 777 to get a big plane. I want to fly a skyscraper and that one should be pretty sweet.

 

The 737 is very nice. Love the handling. Though I did screw up my first flight badly enough that I got an email from PMDG suggesting I give the plane back and stick to playing with LEGO. But you really do feel the  difference in quality pretty quick with this thing compared to the default jets. I guess I have many tutorial videos ahead of me and that's just fine.

 

Thank y'all for the help. Defintely a good purchase. 😎

But between us, and DD_Arthur, I wish we could one day have in MSFS the FM of either IL-2 or DCS, in some aspects even more IL-2... 

Around 2013, tired of the P3D and XP flight dynamics, and having tasted the then recently released DCS P51D, and then, an year after, the first combat fighter included in the early release version of IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad, I jumped into Combat flight simulation for quite a while, and each time I tried to start either P3D or XP they felt so outdated and detached from "the feel of flight" compared to the Combat sims that I kept playing both, actually more IL-2 than DCS...

Much has changed since then, both XP and MSFS feel a LOT better, but I still remember DCS and IL-2 and sometimes miss them, DCS for the UH-1H and the P51D, IL-2 for all of the rest... 

But then, that's not totally improbable because Petrovich is now part of the ASOBO Team !

😉

 

Edited February 26 by jcomm

[Stearmandriver 2,321]

3 hours ago, Greazer said:

Pmdg 737 flight model is junk, compared to Zibo. Simple example: if you are about to touch down with idle thrust and you pull back on yoke, it will immediately  nose up and start to climb. This is obviously so broken because it's impossible IRL. 

Oh my friend, if I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone balloon a 737....

A little bit too abrupt of a flare, a few knots of mismanaged energy, and that semi-critical airfoil skips right off ground effect.

Zibo is a great freeware project and so I never like to say anything negative about that project, but if we're comparing flight models... Well, there's no comparison.

There are so many things in the PMDG that are so good, but most people will never even know about unless they can recognize it from the real airplane.  

The PMDG 737 flight model is very good.  Their engine out / V1 cut performance is the best I've seen in any sim aircraft.  

I know people like to nerd out on the Zibo and for freeware it IS incredible... But it's definitely not the same level.

Edited February 26 by Stearmandriver

[abrams_tank 7,445]

34 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Oh my friend, if I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone balloon a 737....

A little bit too abrupt of a flare, a few knots of mismanaged energy, and that semi-critical airfoil skips right off ground effect.

Zibo is a great freeware project and so I never like to say anything negative about that project, but if we're comparing flight models... Well, there's no comparison.

There are so many things in the PMDG that are so good, but most people will never even know about unless they can recognize it from the real airplane.  

The PMDG 737 flight model is very good.  Their engine out / V1 cut performance is the best I've seen in any sim aircraft.  

I know people like to nerd out on the Zibo and for freeware it IS incredible... But it's definitely not the same level.

Thanks!  Good to know that from a real 737 pilot!  I guess the PMDG 737 is really that good 👍.

[Fiorentoni 4,295]

3 hours ago, Greazer said:

Simple example: if you are about to touch down with idle thrust and you pull back on yoke, it will immediately  nose up and start to climb.

Sorry but saying the 737 flight model is "junk" is hilarious. I cannot take you serious anymore after that. It's as good as it gets, over all flight sims.

EDIT: Also you seem to lack some fundamentals in the physics of flight. Of coure it's possible to "climb" with idle thrust. Climbing means trading speed for altitude. You can go idle on cruise, pull the nose up and climb a couple of thousand feet before stalling. You can just do the same during the flare, especially with ground effect.

Edited February 26 by Fiorentoni

[threexgreen 3,152]

3 hours ago, Greazer said:

Pmdg 737 flight model is junk, compared to Zibo. Simple example: if you are about to touch down with idle thrust and you pull back on yoke, it will immediately  nose up and start to climb. This is obviously so broken because it's impossible IRL. 

That's quite the statement. You're gonna have to check your landing technique. If the engines are actually in idle, you have to pull back on the yoke and hold it back throughout flare just to keep the nose where it is, because it wants to drop as soon as thrust is reduced.

You're either in an inappropriate engery state during flare with loads of excess energy or your engines aren't actually at idle. Increasing yoke back pressure and keeping it to maintain pitch because of thrust transitioning to idle is correct technique and aircraft behavior, and I don't know how you manage to make it climb in that energy state.

[threexgreen 3,152]

16 minutes ago, Fiorentoni said:

You can just do the same during the flare, especially with ground effect.

True, but I wonder how much one would have to yank on the yoke to achieve that when the engines are fully in idle, given you have to increase back pressure just to maintain pitch to touchdown, and in that state to actually climb away you'd have to be close to a tailstrike. I can absolutely make it float when the engines are still above idle by pulling back too much when initiating the flare, but at idle thrust it just wants to drop.

This seems like a hardware sensitivity issue if it happens to him that easily.

[CanadaOne 36]

4 hours ago, jcomm said:

But between us, and DD_Arthur, I wish we could one day have in MSFS the FM of either IL-2 or DCS, in some aspects even more IL-2... 

Around 2013, tired of the P3D and XP flight dynamics, and having tasted the then recently released DCS P51D, and then, an year after, the first combat fighter included in the early release version of IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad, I jumped into Combat flight simulation for quite a while, and each time I tried to start either P3D or XP they felt so outdated and detached from "the feel of flight" compared to the Combat sims that I kept playing both, actually more IL-2 than DCS...

Much has changed since then, both XP and MSFS feel a LOT better, but I still remember DCS and IL-2 and sometimes miss them, DCS for the UH-1H and the P51D, IL-2 for all of the rest... 

But then, that's not totally improbable because Petrovich is now part of the ASOBO Team !

😉

 

 

Morning,

Been years and I've always had IL2, DCS, and MSFS (or FSX) on my PC. I want all the flightsim toys I can get my hands on. Obviously MSFS is the god-king of terrain eye candy but I've always felt the flying to be, as I said before, mushy compared to DCS. I guess I bought the wrong planes, and I'm sure my in-game controls and HOTAS aren't set up nearly as well as they should be. I HATE the MSFS controls setup program with a seething diabolical passion. It's like backwards algebra to me.

Fortunately the 737-600 is making my MSFS happy. Finally have a quality plane that feels right. I have about 1/10th invested in time and money in MSFS that I do in DCS, but that may change and my wallet will weep. 

 

[lwt1971 7,446]

1 hour ago, CanadaOne said:

Obviously MSFS is the god-king of terrain eye candy but I've always felt the flying to be, as I said before, mushy compared to DCS. I guess I bought the wrong planes, and I'm sure my in-game controls and HOTAS aren't set up nearly as well as they should be.

Fortunately the 737-600 is making my MSFS happy. Finally have a quality plane that feels right.

As you've discovered, when you cut through the common misconceptions and misinformation out there about MSFS, it is absolutely about the quality and development expertise behind *each* aircraft.. and aircraft with high quality fidelity, flight models, and systems are very possible on the MSFS platform, especially 3+ years on now where developers have gotten familiar with it (and this goes for MS/Asobo themselves especially with them bringing expertise into the team to also increase fidelity of the default aircraft to unheard of levels vs other sims).

As part of the wallet weeping process you'll soon start to add more from PMDG and then Fenix, A2A, iniBuilds, SWS, Milviz, JustFlight, FSReborn, FSL (soon ™️), etc etc 🙂 , since they all have aircraft of similar great quality for MSFS and more in-progress (ranging the gamut of choices from GA to airliner).

And this is on MSFS 2020.. with 2024 it'll only get better as MS/Asobo revamps the flight dynamics/physics engine and also provides much requested capabilities/flexibility in the SDK for aircraft developers. Some of the 2024 rework such as addressing the one real problem area currently in the MSFS FDE, ground handling, is now partially backported to MSFS 2020 and will release with SU15. PMDG and other devs all plan on taking advantage of this new ground handling in their FMs soon after, so keep an eye out for that in future fix updates.
 

Edited February 26 by lwt1971

[Greazer 1,338]

4 hours ago, threexgreen said:

That's quite the statement. You're gonna have to check your landing technique.

It has nothing to do with "landing technique"

It has everything to do with with the 737's having an extremely unrealistic flight model.  There are Zero 737's that will will Immediately reverse descent at 20 feet and initiate a Climb on IDLE Thrust. To suggest otherwise proves you have Zero knowledge of aircraft physics.

[sd_flyer 6,073]

4 minutes ago, Greazer said:

It has nothing to do with "landing technique"

It has everything to do with with the 737's having an extremely unrealistic flight model.  There are Zero 737's that will will Immediately reverse descent at 20 feet and initiate a Climb on IDLE Thrust. To suggest otherwise proves you have Zero knowledge of aircraft physics.

I must admit I also have zero knowledge in "aircraft physics" ? What is that? New science? 

P.S. Above you have already receive the answer from Stearmandriver  - who actually flies to 737 for a living. Do you want to continue arguing ? LOL

[Fiorentoni 4,295]

9 minutes ago, Greazer said:

It has nothing to do with "landing technique"

It has everything to do with with the 737's having an extremely unrealistic flight model.  There are Zero 737's that will will Immediately reverse descent at 20 feet and initiate a Climb on IDLE Thrust. To suggest otherwise proves you have Zero knowledge of aircraft physics.

In these absolute terms it's wrong. You're at 180 kts during the flare? You'll climb just fine for much longer.
You see, it *does* depend on the correct landing technique. Idle thrust isn't zero, and approach idle is quite a bit higher. Depending on various factors like approach speed, winds, pitch angle, ground effect it's perfectly possible for the 737 to balloon if the landing technique is not correct.
There are two or three real 737 pilots in this thread telling you the flight model is really good and realistic especially for the flare, you think they're all wrong?

Let's try to get more specifical:
You say "at 20 feet" so I assume you retard to idle at 20 feet. You might be doing it too slowly and/or pulling too hard at the same time. Do you flare only after the callout or right on the callout? What's your pitch during the flare? How many degrees? What's your approach speed? Flaps 30 or 40? How much does it "climb"? 500 feet, 10 feet?
Maybe a video would be good.