Why MSFS must be XBox like or die

[Ray Proudfoot 9,032]

9 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

And how have you and certain others come to the conclusion that Asobo is being "protectionist"? Just because they haven't opened up live weather write access yet,

You have read the same posts from Damian in this topic that I have. I have come to the conclusion they’ll never open the weather engine. If I’m wrong I’ll happily accept that. We’re all entitled to our views and if mine differs to yours that’s fine. I don’t challenge yours. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[DD_Arthur 1,088]

47 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

The difference back then was Microsoft was very open to third party developers. Damien said as much. Asobo on the other hand are protectionist despite their early claims to be open to developers.

Wha?  They donated a million dollars based on the sales of one add on aeroplane on the ingame market place.

Can you imagine how much revenue that market place is generating for Microsoft and third party developers?

My dad was Fourteenth Army. He was….less than impressed….when my eldest brother came home one day in a Datsun.

I’m pretty certain the forum software won’t allow me to quote his words on the day I turned up riding this big green kwaka….😃

 

[Ray Proudfoot 9,032]

28 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Wha?  They donated a million dollars based on the sales of one add on aeroplane on the ingame market place.

Can you imagine how much revenue that market place is generating for Microsoft and third party developers?

What’s that got to do with them not opening up the weather engine (so far)? Two completely different scenarios.

Some third party developers have undoubtedly made money. Sadly the best weather programmers for the last 20 years aren’t as lucky.

[Krakin 5,833]

MSFS has done more for the third party community than all of the other flight sims combined. Makes no sense blanketing the team as evil just because some devs weren't able to benefit via the same avenues they were used to. I told Damian he should think about pivoting in the meantime and he seemed to take it in good faith. The MSFS ecosystem is enough of a gravy train that you can make money by accident on it lol. I mean I've paid for ATR liveries on the marketplace when I could have just gotten them on the .to but they were all bundled so nicely lol

[DD_Arthur 1,088]

14 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

What’s that got to do with them not opening up the weather engine (so far)? 

?

You’ve just stated Asobo are ‘protectionist’. I’m trying to demonstrate that their whole business model depends on being open to outside devs. 
This openess has also enabled the community to benefit from a vast amount of quality freeware.

Are they ’protectionist’ of the weather? I’m not sure that’s the right word. Their live weather engine is obviously an important part of the sim as a whole. I have no idea why they haven’t provided an API to access it yet.

 I rather suspect the weather is much more closely bound to the sim’s core functions than we think and their Meteoblu contract precludes access to this particular part of the sim in order to keep to the contractual obligations they already have.

As to what the future holds? We’ll know later on this year….

 

[Cognita 1,112]

5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Given Microsoft / Asobo would be indirectly responsible for Hi-Fi’s demise how could I choose the sim that caused your downfall? Oh the irony.

This is the challenge that comes with having a business that is a direct result of and dependent upon another business. Businesses and their priorities, interests, opportunities, realities change and you can quickly find yourself out business. I have been through this and you need to know when to pivot and walk away.

Damien, I hope something can eventually work out for you to continue your work, but as Ray has said, I am also doubtful that weather is going to be opened up as you need. All of us that have been with this hobby for a long time appreciate that value you have brought to flight simulation -- I can't believe it has been over 20 years -- and the way you have responded to the needs of your customers and supported them. The fact that you have maintained your infrastructure to keep access open for P3D users for nearly 4 years is a testament to your dedication. Many others I think would have "cut their losses" and abandoned it. As I said, I hope some opportunity opens up so you can continue or that you can develop another product that supports us in MSFS; I would be of the first to purchase it and I think I can say a great many others of us would also.

[David Mills 4,774]

3 hours ago, Krakin said:

MSFS has done more for the third party community than all of the other flight sims combined.

Truer words were never spoken. The information below is derived from last week's Asobo update on 3rd party add-ons for MSFS:

• As of 03/17, we have now approved 268 (+3) third parties into the in-sim marketplace and – so far 220 (+1) have released 3,367 products on PC (+34) and 3,108 on Xbox (+35).
• In total, 4,249 products (+32) have already been released in 3rd party stores and the in-sim marketplace. Beyond that, another 840 products (+4) from 3rd party developers are in production (342 announced, 498 unannounced). In total, over 5,089 3rd party products (+39) have either been released or are in development.
• Airports: 2,368 airports (+17) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 2,141 airports (+17) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 1,620 airports (+12) have been released in the in-sim marketplace.
• 114 airports (+1) beyond the released airports have been announced.
• 113 airports (-1) are not announced, but the dev let us know that an airport is in production.
• Aircraft:815 aircraft (+6) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 372 aircraft (+2) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 291 aircraft (+1) have been released in the in-sim PC marketplace.
• 276 aircraft (+1) have been released in the in-sim Xbox marketplace.
• 211 aircraft (+1) beyond the released aircraft have been announced.
• 232 aircraft (+3) are not announced, but the dev let us know that an aircraft is in production.
• Scenery: 1,122 scenery packs (+5) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 1,084 scenery packs (+0) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 648 scenery packs (+0) have been released in the in-sim marketplace.
• 18 scenery packs (-3) beyond the released scenery have been announced.
• 20 scenery packs (+5) are not announced but the dev let us know that scenery is in production
• Mission Packs:318 mission packs (+9) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 273 mission packs (+9) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 212 mission packs (+9) have been released in the in-sim marketplace.
• 0 mission packs (+0) beyond the released missions have been announced.
• 45 mission packs (+0) are not announced, but the dev let us know that they are in production.
• Livery Packs:428 livery packs (+2) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 352 livery packs (+4) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 344 livery packs (+4) have been released in the in-sim marketplace.
• 1 livery pack (+0) beyond the released scenery has been announced.
• 75 livery packs (-2) are not announced, but the dev let us know that scenery is in production.
• Ships & Watercraft:38 ships & watercraft (+0) are either released or are in various stages of development.
• 27 ships & watercraft (+0) have been released on the platform so far in various stores.
• 22 ships & watercraft (+0) have been released in the in-sim marketplace.
• 0 ships & watercraft (+0) beyond the released scenery have been announced.
• 11 ships & watercraft (+0) are not announced, but dev let us know that scenery is in production

[eslader 1,814]

11 hours ago, GaryK said:

It's fair to say that there is less innovation in most things these days. It's a sign of the times and all part of the decline of the West. 

I think it's fairer to say people aren't seeing the innovation that's there because it's not as revolutionary.

When the Wright Brothers went from a bicycle to an airplane, the world was amazed. When Douglas went from the DC-3 to the DC-4, the world was a bit less blown away.

Back in the day, just about any innovation, no matter how small, was seen as a major step because by comparison it was. Moving from 128 to 256 colors gave a very noticeable improvement. Now graphics cards are capable of rendering so many simultaneously that no one even bothers to put it in the specs anymore. That doesn't mean there's no innovation, it just means the steps are seen as more iterative.

Just looking at the last 10 or 15 years of developments only in flight sims, in addition to the graphics improvements I mentioned above, we went from playing on flat screens and using a joystick's hat switch to look around, to using head motion-tracking to look around, to using VR to look around and see things in 3d. That's absolutely innovation, and it's brought out technology that I'd have thought was almost magic if you'd shown it to little-kid me playing Sublogic's sim on my old Apple II.

The innovation is there; we're just jaded to it.

 

BTW on the ActiveSky thing, if they ever did open up the weather API, ASMSFS would be a day 1 buy for me. It was a stellar product in P3d (and very innovative 😉 ) and while it probably wouldn't be as extreme of an upgrade in MSFS as it was in FSX and P3d because the default clouds don't look like 2-dimensional pieces of cardboard spinning around as you get too close to them, it's virtually guaranteed it'd be a much better overall depiction and experience than MSFS has given us.

 

 

[IanHarrison 524]

11 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

That’s very reassuring to hear, thanks Damian.

When you’re 11 miles up at Mach 2 over ocean none of the three major sims will show any meaningful difference.

Even at 7 miles (FL 390,approx.) it makes minimal difference.

[Dominique_K 10,151]

8 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

I rather suspect the weather is much more closely bound to the sim’s core functions tha

This is what the team said early when the question first arose. They consider the weather part of the sim core, part of what they consider their added value. It might also be that the flight modeling is tied to it.

8 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

I their Meteoblu contract precludes access to this particular part of the sim in order to keep to the contractual obligations they already have.

This too. I don’t see MB willing to be put in competition with another data provider. Or that a 3rd party weather engine could use freely their data.

 

About the « protectionism ». If I am not mistaken, two companies only have had difficulties in grafting their products on FS20 : RXP for the avionics  and HiFi. All the others are back in the game.

[GCBraun 2,408]

3 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

About the « protectionism ». If I am not mistaken, two companies only have had difficulties in grafting their products on FS20 : RXP for the avionics  and HiFi. All the others are back in the game.

And today we have the TDS GTNXi Pro, which is now even offering Navigraph data, something RXP never did. I assume things are harder for HiFi when it comes to weather, but xEnviro seems to be working reasonably well and it's even offering historic weather. 

[fsiscool 251]

38 minutes ago, GCBraun said:

And today we have the TDS GTNXi Pro, which is now even offering Navigraph data, something RXP never did. I assume things are harder for HiFi when it comes to weather, but xEnviro seems to be working reasonably well and it's even offering historic weather. 

Yes, imho it is mostly the adoption barrier which is holding back devs "if it does not work the exact same way than before".

[Tuskin38 6,621]

7 hours ago, IanHarrison said:

Even at 7 miles (FL 390,approx.) it makes minimal difference.

I can tell the difference 

I tried having both P3D and MSFS installed at the same time back when MSFS first released, but every time I went back to P3D it just felt so dull and lifeless compared to MSFS (this was with scenery addons in P3D).

I think I uninstalled P3D 2-3 months into MSFS. Never looked back 

Now, I never owned any payware airliners for P3D, just a couple military aircraft. All my airliners were freeware, I did own a handful of airports. Maybe if I owned some payware airliners I would have felt differently? I don’t know.

MSFS is the first time I’ve bought a payware airliner, the Fenix. 

Edited April 3 by Tuskin38

[Damian Clark 1,273]

2 hours ago, fsiscool said:

Yes, imho it is mostly the adoption barrier which is holding back devs "if it does not work the exact same way than before".

Probably for some.  That's not what's held us back, as discussed previously.  To recap, for us, I can list a few reasons that had influence here:

- Lack of support from sim developer for wx add-ons
- MS/Asobo's initial public stance of "we don't really want add-ons that don't adhere to SDK and want that to stop with MSFS2020"
- Our commitment to sim developers and aligning with their visions/goals
- Lack of support from MSFS community overall
- Long delay between MS/Asobo stance of "just wait, it's coming", to "not planned" and our misguided belief and planning around the assumption that SDK would come soon/ever
- Our commitment to customers/platforms that support us while having very limited and quickly dissipating resources
- Lack of communication from MS/Asobo after a previous great open channel and relationship previous to MSFS2020
- Our priorities and motivations being very far from business/earnings and instead being focused around innovation, community benefit and encouragement
- Significant personal hardship for myself over the past 4 years unrelated to any of this
- My personal stubbornness to not give up weather simulation development and my continued vision of being able to participate again in the MSFS platform and do great things there

I don't want to come off as hating on MS/Asobo or their decisions.  I may disagree with them on some things and the way I feel we were treated, but I have great respect for their product, team and their vision.  I realize that HiFi and I, and other developers in similar boats are owed nothing and instead we all benefited from MSFS's franchise for many years.  I am very grateful for the opportunities we were given.  I take full responsibility for the situation we are in.  I could have closed shop a long time ago, "pivoted", and/or made decisions to be very successful and financially rewarded despite all this.  I own it all.  And I apologize to everyone (mostly my children) for all of this. 

 

[Adrian123 1,015]

Yourself and your business have been and always will be regarded in the highest respect. Head up!