There is an issue with the surface wind velocity implemented in the 2020 and 2024 versions. This value is not only incorrect and unrealistic but also affects all aircraft and developers, resulting in unrealistic aircraft physics. Specifically, when you select a surface wind velocity, the value applied is only half of the actual strength. Please refer to the pictures:

 

 

It was always like that, actually. 

32 minutes ago, crimplene said:

It was always like that, actually. 

It's not good, very unrealistic.

I don't think this is entirely unrealistic. Meteorologist give the wind 10 meters (about 30 feet) above the ground. But the wind speed in 1 or 2 meters AGL usually is quite considerably less. No clue if this amounts to 50 percent but I was told by glider pilots that they always have to be very careful when landing with a head wind because of this wind speed gradient because it can lead to unexpected stalls.

Note that in those screenshots, you're setting the wind at an altitude of around 23,000 feet and 43,000 feet, respectively; the aircraft, meanwhile, is on the ground.

Note also that while an aircraft is on the ground, it can't measure the wind accurately.

Try taking off and climbing to the altitude of your wind layer, and the wind displayed in the aircraft should match the wind you set in the sim much better.

If you want to influence the surface wind more directly, reduce the altitude of the wind layer or add an additional, lower wind layer.

Edited March 27, 20251 yr by martinboehme

1 hour ago, crimplene said:

I don't think this is entirely unrealistic. Meteorologist give the wind 10 meters (about 30 feet) above the ground. But the wind speed in 1 or 2 meters AGL usually is quite considerably less. No clue if this amounts to 50 percent but I was told by glider pilots that they always have to be very careful when landing with a head wind because of this wind speed gradient because it can lead to unexpected stalls.

As an airline pilot, I want to let you know that your information is somehow incorrect. Surface wind speed at airports is measured using anemometers placed around the runways, which offer precise wind readings. If you pay attention to the pictures, you will see that 50%. It is true to the statement that "typically" anemometers are placed at about 33 ft, during my observations, IRL, we are sitting at 33 FT, and all the readings are right on the money. When they say wind 220/20 and during the acceleration, we see on the ND 220/20, not 220/10. 

24 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

Note that in those screenshots, you're setting the wind at an altitude of around 23,000 feet and 43,000 feet, respectively; the aircraft, meanwhile, is on the ground.

Note also that while an aircraft is on the ground, it can't measure the wind accurately.

Try taking off and climbing to the altitude of your wind layer, and the wind displayed in the aircraft should match the wind you set in the sim much better.

If you want to influence the surface wind more directly, reduce the altitude of the wind layer or add an additional, lower wind layer.

Your assumption is incorrect. I set a fixed wind value up to whatever altitude is in place for this example to lock it and prevent any variations.

When you say that "it can't measure wind accurately," you have the wrong information. Currently, IRL I fly the 748 and 388 (dual qualified), just a little information for you that might shed light on our systems:

On Boeing (764,744, 748, 777 787), Airbus and others the FMS wind is very accurate in respect to wind direction and speed that will show on ND above  100kts with respect to display orientation, velocity and heading/track reference.

The FMS omputes TRK/GS from successive positions, receives HDG, TAS from the system then solves for the final side of the vector triangle and computes wind direction and velocity within 0 to 100 KTS and displays that info on ND.

 

Data displayed on ND is collected from different sources available in the airplane:

 

accelerometers

gyroscopes

different ports

ins

irs

adiru

gps

dme

 

Once we have the HDG/TAS data (some from ADC and whichever sensor will give data) and TRK/GS, data wind direction speed vector is calculated and displayed. 

15 minutes ago, LRBS said:

When you say that "it can't measure wind accurately," you have the wrong information. Currently, IRL I fly the 748 and 388 (dual qualified), just a little information for you that might shed light on our systems:

Thanks for the information. I remember reading descriptions of other aircraft where the wind display is not accurate on the ground, but apparently this doesnt apply to the 748 or 388.

17 minutes ago, LRBS said:

I set a fixed wind value up to whatever altitude is in place for this example to lock it and prevent any variations.

Are you sure that's how the sim is interpreting these settings? Have you tried climbing up to the altitude of the wind layer and seeing what's displayed there?

Looks like another issue caused by a flight model that limits the effects of crosswinds on the ground. Notice the wind you have chosen is basically a direct crosswind. Do you know what the ground_crosswind_effect_zero_speed and ground_crosswind_effect_max_speed values are in the flight tuning section of the airplane you are using to show this issue are? I suspect they are effectively halving the crosswind value at the speed you are at in the screenshot. 

Here is an example in FS2020 for an airplane for which there is no canceling out of the crosswind. I set the surface wind to 164/20 at KSEA 16L. (Note: in the screenshot I forgot to scroll back up to show the steady wind direction, but it is 164 degrees (same direction as for the gusts, but the gusts are set to zero.) You can see from the ambient wind velocity and direction Simvars {in the Simvar watcher) are indeed 20 knots at 164, and the aircraft wind Z (longitudinal direction) is also about 20 knots (more on this below). 

The airplane ND display shows the wind true direction (correcting for the runway's 16 degree east mag variation. Now there is an issue here in that this correction should not have been applied here. When you input a wind in MSFS 2020 (or get it from a METAR with live weather), the direction is already true. And if you do the calculations, the Simvar wind speed of 19.2 knots is due to the difference between true and magnetic headings (with the wind being at 164 true and the airplane being at 164 magnetic heading). 

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgaZNY1P0lDxHqL6Nqg

Edited March 28, 20251 yr by Donstim

10 hours ago, Donstim said:

Looks like another issue caused by a flight model that limits the effects of crosswinds on the ground. Notice the wind you have chosen is basically a direct crosswind. Do you know what the ground_crosswind_effect_zero_speed and ground_crosswind_effect_max_speed values are in the flight tuning section of the airplane you are using to show this issue are? I suspect they are effectively halving the crosswind value at the speed you are at in the screenshot. 

Here is an example in FS2020 for an airplane for which there is no canceling out of the crosswind. I set the surface wind to 164/20 at KSEA 16L. (Note: in the screenshot I forgot to scroll back up to show the steady wind direction, but it is 164 degrees (same direction as for the gusts, but the gusts are set to zero.) You can see from the ambient wind velocity and direction Simvars {in the Simvar watcher) are indeed 20 knots at 164, and the aircraft wind Z (longitudinal direction) is also about 20 knots (more on this below). 

The airplane ND display shows the wind true direction (correcting for the runway's 16 degree east mag variation. Now there is an issue here in that this correction should not have been applied here. When you input a wind in MSFS 2020 (or get it from a METAR with live weather), the direction is already true. And if you do the calculations, the Simvar wind speed of 19.2 knots is due to the difference between true and magnetic headings (with the wind being at 164 true and the airplane being at 164 magnetic heading). 

https://1drv.ms/i/s!Ajsy7Ey4_8uFgaZNY1P0lDxHqL6Nqg

I wish we could focus on the actual report and facts. When we receive information from ATC before taking off about the surface wind being like a direct crosswind of (let's say, for the sake of argument) 20 KTS, that information is presented to us during t.o. roll on the ND or PFD, depending on the aircraft's configuration. It's not half of the actual wind velocity. Regardless of our personal interpretations, there are some apparent issues with how MSFS2020/2024 is computing this data. 

Your example shows a direct headwind that is unrelated to what I reported. Did you try what I was reporting? Similarly, wind velocity is unrelated to true or magnetic variations. 

1 hour ago, LRBS said:

I wish we could focus on the actual report and facts.

Indeed, that would be good! So let's do that. 🙂

FSX and before automatically reduced the wind at the player aircraft location at the surface by half in order to combat the limited ground friction model. This wind reduction was computed based on stuff like aircraft height AGL and speed and would not just affect the wind the aircraft "felt", it also changed the actual wind itself at the aircraft position, making stuff like aircraft wind displays also show this reduced value. Originally, MSFS 2020 inherited this behavior.

However, this behavior can now be overridden in both 2020 and 2024 by aircraft developers using the parameters @Donstim provided. Aircraft that properly use those parameters will not have this wind reduction at the aircraft position and you will see the 100% values reported in the aircraft displays. There is no systemic limitation built into the weather engine itself that prevents it from providing accurate surface winds. These CFG parameters are opt-in in order to not break the aircraft that were tuned using the previous behavior for customers of those aircraft.

If you are seeing this reduction, then the aircraft developer has not opted into these parameters and they will need to make that change.

Edited March 28, 20251 yr by MattNischan

14 minutes ago, MattNischan said:

Indeed, that would be good! So let's do that. 🙂

FSX and before automatically reduced the wind at the player aircraft location at the surface by half in order to combat the limited ground friction model. This wind reduction was computed based on stuff like aircraft height AGL and speed and would not just affect the wind the aircraft "felt", it also changed the actual wind itself at the aircraft position, making stuff like aircraft wind displays also show this reduced value. Originally, MSFS 2020 inherited this behavior.

However, this behavior can now be overridden in both 2020 and 2024 by aircraft developers using the parameters @Donstim provided. Aircraft that properly use those parameters will not have this wind reduction at the aircraft position and you will see the 100% values reported in the aircraft displays. There is no systemic limitation built into the weather engine itself that prevents it from providing accurate surface winds. These CFG parameters are opt-in in order to not break the aircraft that were tuned using the previous behavior for customers of those aircraft.

If you are seeing this reduction, then the aircraft developer has not opted into these parameters and they will need to make that change.

I agree with you, let s  start with the main developer, ASOBO.

Sometimes we have two wind socks (along runway) each pointing pointing different directions and ATC gives 3rd direction version LOL And it's not Asobo just some Santa Ana winds LOL   

I’m hoping further improvements are made on the ground friction models which may have led to the decision to reduce cross wind components. I think 2024 is better than 2020 but I still find the twitchy yaw especially on the lighter aircraft slightly over done. 
 

Slight off topic @LRBS - I’m guessing the airline you fly for is a certain large German carrier? I didn’t realise that you guys had crew dual rated on both Boeing and Airbus? Do you switch between fleets often or have you recently changed from one to another?

@Donstim has provided remarkable information, and actually answered your points @LRBS.

First of all, it's great to see him here too. For ages I have been using his remarkable creations for the other simulator, and for sure Don is someone who knows what he's talking about !

The subject of true and magnetic wind as reported by METAR and tower was also important to try to identify other possible problems with MSFS winds.

I have yet to make my tests, picking airports with high magnetic declination like the one in Don's example. 

I will have to check if :

1) There is a difference in the internal variables when the wind is based on Real World Weather or manually defined by the user or through a preset weather scenario. 

2) If in 1) I find a difference, then I still have to check if the difference might be due to the simulation having interpreted that when winds are defined manually they're reported as Magnetic, just as if it was the tower reporting them.

Anyway, @MattNischan's answer was also very informative / important and pretty much explained what I already know but was unable to post earlier today because i had a weird problem with my browser / windows and couldn't post here at AVSIM for hours 🙂