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Mace

Rapid City Taxiway signs misplaced?

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With a freeware program like Airport Design Editor or FsxPlanner you can move that sign. Too bad you don't have a cannon on your plane to blast it with. Oops, this is a civilian sim.Bob

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You mean MS made a mistake? :)anyway, if you have FSX Deluxe or Accel you can install the SDK which will allow you to use Airport Design Editor (ADE) which will make quick work of it. Took a look and those signs are KRAP.If you don't have access to sdk I will take a quick shot at fixing it up.scott s..

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Hello Ryan,It looks like whoever made that scenery forgot to remove the default signs. This is a common error; I do it all the time.Best regards.Luis

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LuisThe default FSX KRAP Rapid City has all the signs in the wrong locations. This is a common issue with many default FSX airports due to the round world code. The pack of signs are the correct ones but misplaced as per the Lat/Lon value in the airport code.The Utility ADE will show that all the signs are located properly to each other but off in respect to the runways and taxiways. All the signs at KRAP must be moved proportionally and not just the ones on the taxiways. This again is a common issue with many default FSX airports such as KAHN.This is a very easy task with ADE. Because FSX uses the round world code many other types of seen and unseen scenery is misplaced by a few meters. This includes Localizers, Glidslopes, DME's IM/MM/OM markers (such as KDFW) Taxiway signs, Terminal_Waypoints for approach code at many airports in the database, etc.Since we know that FSX has many of these issues we designed part of ADE to address the problem. ADE also has the ability to move the Stock Markers and the Terminal_Waypoints to correct the approach line draw in the GPS receiver. Example, At KDFW the runway 18R was lengthen in FSX but the Localizer, GS, IM, MM, and OM markers were a copy over from the shorter runway in FS9. This seems to be the norm at many FSX airports and causes both the seen and unseen scenery to be misplaced. As stated, we at ADE unlock all the stock Navaids unlike the other Utilities so the User can correct the FSX parts of a airport that was a copy over of FS9. FSX wanted a round world but did not move many parts of the Airport seen and unseen scenery to match that round world.

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>Example, At KDFW the runway 18R was lengthen in FSX but the>Localizer, GS, IM, MM, and OM markers were a copy over from>the shorter runway in FS9. This seems to be the norm at many>FSX airports and causes both the seen and unseen scenery to be>misplaced. This has been pointed out to me as well regarding 18R at DFW. I did a scenery of Terminal D at KDFW, and I did make an ADE file for it. I did do some optimizing (such as diamonds on the inner rwys) but I did not alter the GS, Localizer, etc. for any runways at that time, since my emphasis then was on the gmax building and not other elements of the scenery.In the interim several people have pointed out that something is amiss with 18R.You may find this interesting Jim:As a part of my investigation, I loaded the area in GoogleEarth. I noted the GS antenna location for 18R in the real world. Then I compared it to what is in AIRNAV and what is in the sim. Airnav and the sim match, as they often do since that's largely the same database Microsoft used. Howver the real-world location as per GoogleEarth, does not match.Now that you have informed me that 18R has been LENGTHENED, this solves the puzzle. Obviously the Airnav data (which is, as far as I know, "official" FAA data) is based on the *earlier* shorter runway.EDIT: I have now changed the GS and localizer for 18R. It would appear that the localizer for 36L is also based on the old runway length so I will now adjust it.As far as the appr data is concerned, it appears that the waypoints are in their proper positions already. I will have to test and verify in the sim though.Airnav appears to be down at the present time (20:00 GMT on 8/30/08)!RhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.80 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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Thank you very much for the information, Jim, it is very helpful. Since I always exclude everything and re-do the entire airport from scratch, I had not noticed this problem at all. Well, if it is easy to fix, then it is not a big problem. Thanks again.Best regards.Luis

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Since I am curious by nature, I decided to take a look at the airport in question. By the way, is that really the identifier? Probably a lot of old, and tired, jokes concerning it.Anyway, the signs did display for me just as they did for Ryan. So, I used the ScaleToRoundEarth key in the fsx.cfg file to turn off the round earth for objects and see what happens. (Before anybody starts to get ideas, adding this key to the Scenery section of that file will not turn off the round earth; it only prevents it from being applied to objects, which means that they can be slightly above the ground. So, please, nobody should come back claiming to have found some great solution to a serious problem by using this key.)Here is the result:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191994.gifAs can be seen, the taxi signs, and also other objects, do move slightly depending on the Boolean value of this key. However, with round earth applied or not, the signs are still in the middle of the way.So, I took a look at this airport with Jon Masterson's wonderful Airport Design Editor, and this is what I saw:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191995.jpg(tell_scruffyduck: Jon, the program is great, very powerful and flexible. Still, sometimes the small signs can be difficult to see, particularly when there is an image background. Would you consider adding the possibility of optionally displaying big balloons for such small objects so as to make them more visible? Perhaps others might also find that helpful. Thanks very much.)In the default file, the signs are, in fact, misplaced, and this seems to be the cause, not the round earth being applied. I also took a look at some default airports in the region where I most fly, and where I have changed the airports, and none of those default airports has misplaced signs at all. Which probably explains why I never noticed this problem.Anyway, I do not pretend that this is a definitive answer to this question, since there is a lot that I do not know about FS. However, even this cursory examination of the problem seems to indicated that the signs are not misplaced because of the round earth, but rather because the default airports have them that way. As to the reason for that, only Doug Matthews can say, since he is the ACES developer that put all 24 000 airports together. This is a lot of hard and tedious work, so it is not surprising if occasional problems exist. Still, it seems like a very easy problem to solve.Best regards.Luis

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I agree that the problem with KRAP is not round earth. There also seems to be problems with taxiway names compared to the NACO chart.For KDFW, this is what is in the FAA database for 18R ILS:10/30/2003 RWY EXTENDED TO 13400 (END-STATE) AND GS & IM RELOCATED & MM DECOMMISSION EFF 10/30/03 The positions per FAA are indicated here:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/192005.jpg32.87609167 -97.05485 18R Z32.91263056 -97.05599167 18R G32.9191565 -97.05459117 18R IM32.918575 -97.05463611 36L Zscott s..

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Luis Thanks for the detailed round earth explaination. We are looking at making the Taxiway sign larger in ADE as you request. We also have the rubberband technique in the works that will help to grab different groups of signs so we can move then as one. If you look at KRAP closely on some ends of the runways/taxiways various groups of signs need to move proportionally.As I study many airports I see signs simular to KRAP misplaced (KAHN, etc.).@MACELook at Scotts last picture. Notice the new runway length for 18R caused the IM (purple diamond) to be just passed the touchdown bars. This is probably the same lat/lon as the FS9 IM which did not get moved back in FSX. Use ADE and slide it back to its proper location. We unlock Markers with ADE because I have found the markers are also out of position at other airports.

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@JimI concur, the IM must be from the old runway; so was the GS in the stock FSX airport.As you can see in the attached pic of my KDFW v1.1 that I'm working on, I have already started to mod things.@ ScottYour info on these positions is very helpful, thank you. Airnav appears to be using the old runway data here for these features.Here is how my KDFW looks at 18R at the present time:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/192038.jpgRhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.80 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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>>The positions per FAA are indicated here:>I'm having trouble finding this data on the FAA site, can you give me a heads up? I need a good source other than airnav.RhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.80 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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