40 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

If EVs are so great, then why is the EV industry floundering lately due to poor sales?  The truth is that most people don't want them, and nobody wants to sit around for an hour or more at a charging station

 

We've discussed this many, many, many times before, pretty much every time EV's are mentioned you say the same.

Global sales surged in 2025, 18.5 million units. Strong growth in Europe. Strong growth in China. Growth in US too, but at a slower pace, but still growth. People don't sit around for an hour or more charging, they charge at home while they are asleep. Those that do have to charge at a charging station, do so while they empty their bladders and while eating food, food is a human requirement, along with bladder emptying. Unless you happen to be an android, of course. 

 

49 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I'm just curious where all the electricity to charge these things will come from?

 

Something else we have debated, over and over again. As we've said before....

 

Quote

Electricity for electric cars will come from a mix of the existing grid (using gas, nuclear, hydro, renewables) and a major expansion of new renewable sources (solar, wind) to meet demand, supported by grid upgrades, smart charging to shift demand to off-peak hours, and innovative Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) technology where EVs act as mobile batteries to stabilize the grid.

 

56 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

because most people in the world don't have their own houses or roofs.

 

If they haven't even got houses and roofs, then I doubt they have cars, do they. 😏

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

10 to 20% loss of range is usually ICE engines.

First I've heard of this.

I went 40 years recording mileage every time I filled my tank, for both a gas and a diesel car. The diesel was 22.5 mpg, city or highway, summer or winter. I don't remember the numbers for the Scrirocco, but I didn't notice it varying according to any weather pattern. 

The nice thing about the ICE engine is that heat in the winter is free, a waste byproduct of the engine. 

Anyway, when you've got 400 miles of range on a 5 minute fill-up, you don't sweat a 10% reduction in range. 

I recently heard about electric school busses that had to run without heat in the cold of winter because it reduced the range too much.

I think anyone who wants an electric vehicle should be able to buy one. But 40 years from now, no one is going to be restoring a Tesla, while they'll still be restoring muscle cars. 🙂 

Hook

23 minutes ago, martin-w said:

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

because most people in the world don't have their own houses or roofs.

 

If they haven't even got houses and roofs, then I doubt they have cars, do they. 😏

I think this refers to those who rent their abodes, and thus have no control over being able to install home chargers/solar panels.

58 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Growth in US too, but at a slower pace, but still growth.

Sales are collapsing in the USA, with Ford and GM both losing billions.  The only reason they're somewhat successful in Europe is because of the high taxes making gasoline extremely expensive, plus the subsidies and mandates.

59 minutes ago, martin-w said:

If they haven't even got houses and roofs, then I doubt they have cars, do they.

I said their *own* houses, not that they don't have a house or roof.  You should read more carefully before you reply.

Lastly, what's the furthest distance that you drive or travel routinely?  Hmmm?  Maybe a couple miles?  You claim to speak for everyone when you say that they will just charge at home, without realizing that some people drive hundreds of miles for work and other activities.  

Have you actually done any of the things you talk about or is it all just BS?  I think I know the answer.

I'll end this pointless discussion here.

Dave

56 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Sales are collapsing in the USA, with Ford and GM both losing billions.

https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales

From the summary:

• U.S. EV market share was 10.5% in Q3 2025, a new record high.
• EV sales volume climbed sharply to a new high of 437,487 fully-electric vehicles sold.
• Tesla dropped further to 41% of U.S. EV market share.
• General Motors doubled EV sales since Q2 2024, while Ford’s EV sales were down.
• Among the nearly 90 EV models on sale, only nine posted sales above 10,000 units.

57 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Lastly, what's the furthest distance that you drive or travel routinely?  Hmmm?  Maybe a couple miles?  You claim to speak for everyone when you say that they will just charge at home, without realizing that some people drive hundreds of miles for work and other activities.  

The average daily commute appears to be 42 miles: https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map

This can only be a productive discussion if you cite data, not whatever random opinions you want to believe.

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Sales are collapsing in the USA

 

See Luke's reply. Wanting it to be true doesn't make it reality.

 

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

I said their *own* houses, not that they don't have a house or roof.

 

🤔 You have no sense of humour.  And I see the old Dave is now back for 2026. 

 

2 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Lastly, what's the furthest distance that you drive or travel routinely?  Hmmm?  Maybe a couple miles? 

 

Its not about me, my individual requirements, you made a generalized statement, regarding EV sales in general, and you said sales were floundering and sales in the US are collapsing.  So I responded in the same context and Googled it and showed you the response. 

 

Quote

You claim to speak for everyone when you say that they will just charge at home, without realizing that some people drive hundreds of miles for work and other activities.  

 

No I don't, I just Google it to fact check you and show you the result. 

Here's some more Googling for you...

 

"Yes, most people charge their electric vehicles (EVs) at home, with estimates often around 80% of charging occurring there, as it's convenient, cheaper than public charging, and allows for overnight top-ups using standard outlets or dedicated wall chargers, though public charging remains crucial for longer trips. "

 

 

Quote

Have you actually done any of the things you talk about or is it all just BS?

 

Why would I have to, I'm just researching and fact checking you and finding out you are wrong. If I found out you were right I'd give you a big thumbs up. You usually aren't though. Do you want ne to lie and say you are right when a search tells me you are wrong?

Just be nice to people. Nicer for everyone. 🙂

 

Quote

I'll end this pointless discussion here.

 

Yeah, best thing, you'll only get it locked... again! 🙂 

 

Edited January 11Jan 11 by martin-w

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

If they haven't even got houses and roofs, then I doubt they have cars, do they. 😏

Never lived in an apartment? 🙂 

"You'll own nothing and be happy." 😄 

Hook

3 hours ago, LHookins said:

First I've heard of this.

 

City driving and short trips have the biggest impact on ICE vehicles in cold conditions.

 

"ICE Vehicle Range Loss in Cold

• Denser Air: Causes higher aerodynamic drag, requiring more power to push through.
• Engine & Transmission Friction: Cold oil is thicker, increasing internal resistance.
• Warm-Up Time: More fuel is used to get the engine and fluids to operating temperature.
• Electrical Loads: Heaters, defrosters, and lights use more energy.
• Winter Fuel: Some regions use winter-blend fuel, which is less energy-dense. "

 

"Yes, both Electric Vehicles (EVs) and Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles lose range/fuel economy in cold weather, with EVs facing a larger impact (often 10-40% range loss) due to slower battery chemistry and high energy demand for cabin heating, while ICE cars lose about 15%."

Edited January 11Jan 11 by martin-w

That... sounds like a stand-up comedy routine. 

I'll take my FORTY YEARS EXPERIENCE of recording every fill-up and calculating my mileage over an AI generated point list.

If I ever, EVER had a 15% drop in mileage I'd have my car in the shop.

My commute in Washington DC was from my apartment to the Pentagon, about 5 miles, with a surprising amount of that on the Pentagon parking lot. City driving and short trips. I also made several trips from DC to Dallas, about 1300 miles, with the expected increase in mileage from highway driving. The last few years I had longer commutes. I drove that Scriocco for over 8 years.

If there was any difference between summer and winter mileage, I didn't notice it.

I have nothing against people preferring electric cars, but they wouldn't have worked when I had an 80 mile commute each way in Texas. For a while I did that one on a motorcycle. Two stop signs, two red lights, all highways except for less than a mile combined at the ends. Eventually traded the Goldwing for a diesel (mostly for the air conditioning) and later moved a lot closer to work.

<sigh>

Hook

Edited January 11Jan 11 by LHookins

2 hours ago, Luke said:

This can only be a productive discussion if you cite data, not whatever random opinions you want to believe.

There are articles and videos all over the web about the large decline in EV sales in the USA, the second largest auto market in the world.  They really collapsed once the $7500 EV tax credit went away, which only proves my point that these things aren't viable without taxpayer funded subsidies.

Sales of hybrids and EVs surged leading up to the end of the tax subsidy, which is why the sales were as good as they were last year.

Hybrids have done well and are a better option than pure EVs right now IMO.

If EVs are so great, then people will buy them without mandates and subsidies.  Just let the invisible hand do its thing.

Dave

 

5 hours ago, martin-w said:

Something else we have debated, over and over again. As we've said before....

Meanwhile:

Germany restarted 3 large coal-fired power plants in 2022 that were supposed to shut down in 2023, but guess what?  They're still in operation and now are scheduled to be taken offline in ***2036***.  Also, Germany is trying to open new natural gas power pants but is having difficulty due to stalled EU permitting.

Facts are stubborn things.

Dave

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

There are articles and videos all over the web about the large decline in EV sales in the USA, the second largest auto market in the world.  They really collapsed once the $7500 EV tax credit went away, which only proves my point that these things aren't viable without taxpayer funded subsidies.

Sales of hybrids and EVs surged leading up to the end of the tax subsidy, which is why the sales were as good as they were last year.

Hybrids have done well and are a better option than pure EVs right now IMO.

If EVs are so great, then people will buy them without mandates and subsidies.  Just let the invisible hand do its thing.

Dave

 

BYD EVs are now the most purchased EV brand in almost all of the world. I say almost, because, they are NOT AVAILABLE in the US due to political decisions to keep BYD out of the US (to protect US brand Tesla).
So faced with high price Telsa, with NO option to purchase the much more affordable BYD models, its no surprise that EV sales numbers are lagging behind the rest of the world.

12 hours ago, LHookins said:

That... sounds like a stand-up comedy routine. 

I'll take my FORTY YEARS EXPERIENCE of recording every fill-up and calculating my mileage over an AI generated point list.

If I ever, EVER had a 15% drop in mileage I'd have my car in the shop.

Hook

 

You are arguing against basic physics and chemistry. Of course ICE cars lose range in very cold conditions.

Do some research.

 

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather#:~:text=Cold weather and winter driving,be at 77°F.

"Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.

Cold weather effects can vary by vehicle model. However, expect conventional gasoline vehicles to suffer a 10% to 20% fuel economy loss in city driving and a 15% to 33% loss on short trips."

 

 

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w

11 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Meanwhile:

Germany restarted 3 large coal-fired power plants in 2022 that were supposed to shut down in 2023, but guess what?  They're still in operation and now are scheduled to be taken offline in ***2036***.  Also, Germany is trying to open new natural gas power pants but is having difficulty due to stalled EU permitting.

Facts are stubborn things.

Dave

 

We were debating whether EV sales are floundering, as you put it, and collapsing in the US. You've now moved on to power plants in Germany. 🤔

Im more interested in global trends than one country, but for those interested in the US, this is interesting.

https://share.google/AXBInMupc19t1nIE3

 

"Already, automakers that have invested huge sums in the EV transition are making changes to try and keep sales going in America. Hyundai, for example, announced in early October that it will cut the price of its popular Ioniq 5 EV by nearly $10,000 next year. One week later, General Motors unveiled a $29,000 version of its Chevy Bolt.

Some state and local governments are taking action, too: Colorado boosted the discounts it offers for both new and used EVs. Burlington, Vermont, launched a similar program.

Meanwhile, the country’s public EV charging network is growing steadily, and the Trump administration is moving ahead with a $5 billion Biden-era program to build out charging infrastructure.

It’s clear, as Cox points out, that electrified vehicles are the future of transportation. Indeed, some countries are already living in that era: In Norway, more than eight in 10 new cars sold are fully electric. The roadblocks set up by the Trump administration might delay progress in the U.S., but it can’t stave off the inevitable"

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w