25 minutes ago, martin-w said:

You are arguing against basic physics and chemistry. Of course ICE cars lose range in very cold conditions.

Do some research.

"The chocolate ration has been increased to 20 grams." -- George Orwell, 1984.

Hook

IBTL. 😉

Looking even more dubious. If it's not though.....

 

 

6 hours ago, LHookins said:

"The chocolate ration has been increased to 20 grams." -- George Orwell, 1984.

Hook

Of course you're exactly on point with where this is headed.  The problem is that many folks like Martin, who I believe generally have good intentions, are on board with the mandates and restrictions 1)because they believe in the narrative and that they're doing something good, and 2)because it doesn't adversely affect them.

Martin lives on a tiny island and doesn't own a car.  He doesn't really need a car, and that's fine.  Since he doesn't have to fork over a lot of money for an EV or worry about paying high electricity rates to charge one, it's easy for him to lecture everyone else about what's good for us and force us to either be like him and just not own a car, or be forced to buy something we don't want.

The same goes for his advocacy of solar panels and electric everything.  He admits that he doesn't have an electric water heater, or didn't where he lived before, and also doesn't have solar panels.  He claims this is because 1)he rents and his landlord won't let him have these appliances, and/or 2)he can't afford to purchase them.  The irony is that he lectures the rest of us about how great solar panels are and how we should all convert everything to electric without considering that many of us would have difficulty affording these things or be in a rental situation just like him.

I actually do have an electric water heater and an electric heat pump for heating and air conditioning.  I traded in my diesel-guzzling big truck for a smaller truck with an engine half the size and much better gas mileage.  I keep my house at 65F (18C) during the day and down to 55 (13C) at night in the winter to conserve energy.  In the summer I keep the house at 75F (24C), not 70F(21C) like a lot of people in the U.S.  We use very few paper towels and use fabric cloths instead, unlike many Americans.  We have a small, very energy efficient washing machine that uses about half the amount of water that many machines use.  We paid hundreds more for it when we could have bought a cheaper, less efficient model.

Although I'm critical and skeptical of the narrative, the mandates, and the subsidies, I actually do put my money where my mouth is and buy and use things that are more energy efficient.  Pretty ironic, huh?

Dave

4 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Martin, who I believe generally have good intentions, are on board with the mandates and restrictions 1)because they believe in the narrative and that they're doing something good

Martin is a good guy and his heart is in the right place. 

Martin's only fault, if it is one, is that life hasn't made him cynical. He's probably overall happier than we are. This is not a criticism.

I might disagree with him, but I genuinely like the guy.

Hook

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

Martin lives on a tiny island and doesn't own a car.  He doesn't really need a car, and that's fine.  Since he doesn't have to fork over a lot of money for an EV or worry about paying high electricity rates to charge one, it's easy for him to lecture everyone else about what's good for us and force us to either be like him and just not own a car, or be forced to buy something we don't want.

 

Negative, Dave, Negative! I don't care what you do, you have just bought a big American gas burning truck I recall, and I did not complain one iota. You do you, make your own choices. All I do is read what you type and then think... "hmmm, I better check if that is right or wrong, do a bit of fact checking". Because you see, I like to know the facts, the truth, not what somebody claims is true. I simply fact check what you claim and then find out of you are right or wrong. I'll be the first to tell you if you are right. 👍 You get no lecturing from me, not once have I told you what you SHOULD do, or complained about what you DO. I'm not Mr. environmentally perfect, either. I just fact check. 

 

Quote

or be forced to buy something we don't want.

 

Not once have I commented on whether I think it's right or wrong that you be forced to buy an EV. And after a quick Google it seems that no American is being forced to buy an EV, so I'm not quite sure what you mean and why you think you are being forced to. 🤔

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

The same goes for his advocacy of solar panels and electric everything.  He admits that he doesn't have an electric water heater, or didn't where he lived before, and also doesn't have solar panels.  He claims this is because 1)he rents and his landlord won't let him have these appliances, and/or 2)he can't afford to purchase them.  The irony is that he lectures the rest of us about how great solar panels are and how we should all convert everything to electric without considering that many of us would have difficulty affording these things or be in a rental situation just like him.

 

Wrong again! I have never told anybody, especially you, that you should convert to electric, not once. Do I believe climate change is real? Yes! Do I tell you if I fact check your claims and they are wrong? Yes. But you power your life how you like.

Re me renting... Wrong again! I don't rent anything, I live with my daughter, its her rental cottage, not mine. And I don't know how you behave with your grown up kids (if you have them) but I don't get to tell my 32 year old adult daughter what she has to pay for, what she has to do, how she has to behave, how she has to live. Hence why she doesn't have an EV. Would I buy a BEV if I were in the market for a car? Yes, because I've driven 4 now and like the way they drive, the torque gives my 68 year old body a bit of a thrill, they are cheap to service and run, I wouldn't have to hang around a smelly petrol stations pumping petrol, and I am of the opinion they are the right environmental choice. 

Have you driven a BEV? Any experience of them? Feel free to like them or not. 

But again, Mr. Dave.... you do you, you make your own choices, I don't have the right to tell you that you should do anything.... which is why I never have. No idea why you think that. 

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

I traded in my diesel-guzzling big truck for a smaller truck with an engine half the size and much better gas mileage.  I keep my house at 65F (18C) during the day and down to 55 (13C) at night in the winter to conserve energy.  In the summer I keep the house at 75F (24C), not 70F(21C) like a lot of people in the U.S.  We use very few paper towels and use fabric cloths instead, unlike many Americans.  We have a small, very energy efficient washing machine that uses about half the amount of water that many machines use.  We paid hundreds more for it when we could have bought a cheaper, less efficient model.

 

Awesome, well done. But I have never cared what you do. I only care if I think somebody has claimed something that's not correct. Maybe its my OCD that I have suffered form from the age of 8, my mental health, that makes me respond? (My OCD has been awful over the last 6 months, but thanks to Fluoxetine and ERP I'm almost back to my old self) Doesn't matter if it's climate change, electric cars, technical aspects of an Intel 14900K, how many spurs can be taken from a UK ring final circuit, how to stimulate muscular hypertrophy, the speed of light in a vacuum or who invented the light bulb.... I simply fact check claims and tell you if what I read implies you are wrong. Some people don't care if you disagree with them, some people don't like it. 

 

Apologize if you like... 😺

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w

1 hour ago, LHookins said:

Martin's only fault, if it is one, is that life hasn't made him cynical. He's probably overall happier than we are. This is not a criticism.

 

Oh trust me, I certainly am cynical regarding many things...

But at the same time knowing that skepticism is fine but cynicism isn't because it's the belief that people are only motivated by self-intertest. And cynics perform worse in cognitive tests and and are less effective at identifying untrustworthy people and lies than non-cynics. 

Can we get back to the electric bike claims now, please?

 

 

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w

17 minutes ago, martin-w said:

the belief that people are only motivated by self-intertest.

Nowhere did the Google definitions imply a belief that people were only motived by self-interest.

But I can see where it is in your self-interest to interpret it that way. 😄 

Hang in there, Martin. I still think you're a good guy.

Hook

 

20 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Nowhere did the Google definitions imply a belief that people were only motived by self-interest.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Cynicism is fundamentally the belief that human behavior is driven purely by self-interest, leading to a deep distrust of others' motives and a negative view of their actions, even genuine good deeds, which are often reinterpreted as disguised self-serving acts or seen as naive. While it can serve as a protective shield against disappointment, excessive cynicism often stems from disillusionment and can lead to isolation, poor health, and a self-fulfilling prophecy where individuals act selfishly because they expect others to. 

 

 

 

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

Not once have I commented on whether I think it's right or wrong that you be forced to buy an EV.

I'm glad that you are not on board with the mandates.  European governments and some States here have indeed instituted mandates and restrictions on ICE vehicles, so it is a real thing.  Some are changing their tune now and either removing the mandates or extending the deadline further into the future.  They're doing this because they realize it's not practical and will hurt their economies.

 

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

But I have never cared what you do

But you care a lot about what I've written to the point where you go out of your way to find links and quotes to refute my assertions.  You do indeed take on a lecturing tone with me and other folks in the forum.

All I ask is that people walk the walk if they're going to talk the talk.

I do think you are a good person, BTW.  I've had some issues with depression and anxiety myself over the years, so can understand your struggles with OCD.  Glad you're doing better.

Dave

32 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I'm glad that you are not on board with the mandates.  European governments and some States here have indeed instituted mandates and restrictions on ICE vehicles, so it is a real thing.  Some are changing their tune now and either removing the mandates or extending the deadline further into the future.  They're doing this because they realize it's not practical and will hurt their economies.

We've had a long history of mandates in this country that were decried as not practical and would hurt the economy. To pick two simple examples, you cannot buy a car without seatbelts, or one that burns leaded gasoline. Both took far too long with lots of industry pushback, but now we would not consider a car without either. I have a delightful 400hp Audi that gets 23mpg because of mandates that have forced automakers to actually innovate rather than push the same garbage that they were giving us in the 1970s and 1980s.

The (IMO, preferred) alternative to mandates is taxes. That allows the population to make economic choices as to their behavior, it still gives them the option to go one way or another, whichever makes more economic sense. That's why I prefer a carbon tax over cap and trade or mandates - you want to do this, fine, you pay more to do it. (Subsidies are a negative tax, so the same thing).

I finally drove an electric vehicle for the first time last year - I loved it. There was a little bit of a challenge regarding charging since we were in a _very_ rural area, but overall it was a good experience. Given my wife's commuting habits, an electric car is likely to be next for us. And given what is going on with electrical generation with renewables, I expect a glut of solar to make the spot price go negative during the day pushing smart meters and ToD pricing. For those who talk about the drawbacks of charging electric vehicles, I can see the day within the next decade where it will be close to free to charge my vehicle during a certain time of day, and I will be able to automatically do that.

When will gas prices drop by 90% 2 hours of the day, and your car automatically refill its tank with this cheap gas? 🙂

Cheers

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

I'm glad that you are not on board with the mandates.

 

I didn't say I was and I didn't say I wasn't. I've not addressed it.

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

But you care a lot about what I've written to the point where you go out of your way to find links and quotes to refute my assertions.

 

 I only care about what you write if I suspect you are propagating false information and that applies to any subject whether its the price of bread or climate change or anything else. So I fact check and respond if I think you are wrong. You then offer counteragents and I respond. I will certainly provide anyone with quotes, references, evidence, citations. 

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

You do indeed take on a lecturing tone

 

I state the facts and provide evidence. On a forum, you see no body language and don't hear the tone of voice, so It's easy to misinterpret just from the written word, the writing style, how we express ourselves with words. Happens a lot on forums. Lecturing is never my intention.

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

All I ask is that people walk the walk if they're going to talk the talk.

 

Again, this is not about me. It's about you stating something as fact, me fact checking and finding out you are wrong, me telling you, and you reacting. My only objective is to establish the facts, the truth. Contrary to this modern "my truth" nonsense, there is only one truth, its an objective concept. I have no "walk" to make. I could be the least environmentally friendly person on the planet, but you would still be wrong if you state something counterfactual and I would still be right if I present proven fact. 

 

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

I do think you are a good person, BTW.  I've had some issues with depression and anxiety myself over the years, so can understand your struggles with OCD.  Glad you're doing better.

 

👍

Edited January 12Jan 12 by martin-w

3 hours ago, martin-w said:

I only care about what you write if I suspect you are propagating false information and that applies to any subject whether its the price of bread or climate change or anything else. So I fact check and respond if I think you are wrong.

I'll say this again and leave it there: I can provide just as many articles, links, facts, etc. that support my assertions vis-a-vis the prohibited subject as you can come up with to support your side.  I'm not wrong, but perhaps you aren't either.  The truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

 

3 hours ago, Luke said:

I finally drove an electric vehicle for the first time last year - I loved it.

I think that EVs are great.  I have always thought about powering a vehicle using electric motors instead of inefficient gasoline engines.  My beef is that I don't want to be forced to buy one, which is exactly what many govts. were and are proposing.  California and many European countries want to ban sales of ICE vehicles and have set deadlines of 2035-2040 for those bans.  I believe they have pushed back these dates as they've realized what a disaster it would be.  

I don't want one with a gigantic lithium-ion battery pack, however.  I'm still waiting for more energy dense and safer battery options before I would consider one.  I know that they are in development.

3 hours ago, Luke said:

And given what is going on with electrical generation with renewables, I expect a glut of solar to make the spot price go negative during the day pushing smart meters and ToD pricing.

I do not believe for one second that renewables, wind and solar specifically, can provide all the world's power needs today or in the near future.  There are articles and discussions about this by engineers and scientists who have done the math and its simply not possible.  It's not simply about the amount of power that could be generated by wind and solar, but also the materials needed to build out all the infrastructure and panels and turbines and other components, which would require a massive increase in mining and processing capacity that simply isn't there.  Then there's the issue of unreliable and intermittent generation from wind and solar requiring massive battery backup and baseload power from natural gas and nuclear to fill the gap.  Having said that, maybe 50 years from now, I can see a world powered solely by renewables, to include hydroelectric and geothermal, but not now and not in the next 20+ years.  Nuclear fusion would make all this irrelevant and that's what I'm hoping for.

Dave

7 hours ago, dave2013 said:

I'll say this again and leave it there: I can provide just as many articles, links, facts, etc. that support my assertions vis-a-vis the prohibited subject as you can come up with to support your side. 

 

Its down to validity of sources. Some sources are easily exposed as dodgy. Its also down to basic physics and chemistry we've known about since Svantee Arrhenius in the 1800s.