1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

In reference to the 208 using Electric Trim down to landing - here's a video from the series I was watched where I first noticed it. Apologies if videos are not allowed (I do not own this video). Pick up around 5:45 and you'll see (and hear it) used all the way to the flare and during.

Note that at 5:45, the airplane is not yet at the final approach speed, and the flaps aren't fully extended. The pilot will obviously have to make trim changes in response to the speed change and flap extension; this is complete at around 6:25.

At 6:40, there's a caption that reads "use the pitch trim to adjust for correct speed". I interpret this as meaning that the pilot notices that he's still needing to hold some pressure on the yoke to achieve the correct speed, so he's using the pitch trim to remove that pressure.

After this point, I see a few brief pitch trim inputs; these look as if the pilot is "tweaking" the trim because he senses that he's still holding some pressure on the yoke.

At 7:22, the pilot starts trimming nose-up during the flare, a technique that @ATRguy has discussed above.

1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

Trying it yesterday in the sim had mixed results - definitely a practice thing. It does feel 'wrong' as using your thumb vs whole arms to feel the plane move seems like you have less control, not more, however the results were fairly practical, after several attempts.

Not sure what you mean by "using your thumb vs whole arms to feel the plane move", but it sounds as if you may be using trim alone to make pitch inputs. If this is the case, then note that this isn't correct real-world technique. To make pitch inputs, you should always use the elevator, and you should only use trim to eliminate any control forces that you're having to hold on the elevator.

Now granted, doing this in the sim is harder than in real life because most sim yokes and joysticks (unless they have force feedback) will always return to the same center position. So when you're trimming away control forces with such sim controls, you have to slowly return the yoke/stick to the center position as you're trimming. In the real airplane (or with force feedback controls), the yoke remains in the same position that you had been holding it, and trimming merely eliminates the control forces.

1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

14 hours ago, ATRguy said:

It also flies like a dump truck

I guess my last question is, do you feel this is represented well in the Sim? Much of the discussion is around the real 208 technique, but does that translate to the Sim? And is it worth practicing?

I'll leave it to @ATRguy to respond, but I believe that comment referred to the ATR, not the Caravan.

Edited April 13Apr 13 by weaklink

 

What we observe here closely aligns with @ATRguy  comment. This appears to conflict with the guidance in FAA-H-8083-3C and the training manuals. For clarity and training purposes, I would like to see whether this is a standard procedure in the FCOM, part of the SOP, or simply a technique. Let's remember, this is not a confrontation, please. Thanks. 

I fly as a trainee in a microlight, C42, which of course is not a 208! But we learn to set trim to neutral before landing (even before joining the circuit) , and then not touch it again. The C42 has only a electrical trim btw.

Trimming the sim is always a bit difficult, varying with the model of the plane. A lot of planes have very large trim movements often only after a delay, not matter if a wheel or electrical trim switch is used. So in general I would say trimming is a problem in the sim. For me it helps to set very small incremental/decremental steps in something like SPAD.next.

 

Also: I now have a MOZA AB6 FFB base with Moza stick, and I can set hardware trim in the Moza software, which works really intuitive and fine because of instant feedback of the forces needed for pitch adjustment cancelling out.

Edited April 13Apr 13 by Rene_Feijen

2 hours ago, weaklink said:

Now granted, doing this in the sim is harder than in real life because most sim yokes and joysticks (unless they have force feedback) will always return to the same center position. So when you're trimming away control forces with such sim controls, you have to slowly return the yoke/stick to the center position as you're trimming. In the real airplane (or with force feedback controls), the yoke remains in the same position that you had been holding it, and trimming merely eliminates the control forces.

This explains a lot! I assumed the real plane also had the yoke seek to return to center (like how a car wheel doesn't stay turned, but seeks back to center when you let go). That explains the disconnect between what I'm seeing on the youtube videos and how I'm flying in the sim. I have the Logitech yoke, and I have not flown a real plane. The Sim yoke always wants to return to center position so that's the "Fighting" the controls I mentioned. Just so I have the understanding right - as you descend towards the runway threshold, you are making the pitch adjustments with the yoke, not the trim. Then after the adjustment, instead of just holding that back or forward pressure, you use the trim switch to allow the yoke to re-center while the plane maintains the new pitch angle. IRL the yoke would not re-center, but remain pulled back or pushed forward slightly?

I can understand trim for level flight, as it would be fatiguing to hold the yoke at a certain position for a long period. I get the concept - I just feel like its a lot of mental workload to add to the landing phase, when you can just trim for neutral (as mentioned above) and work the yoke and throttle the rest of the way down. I feel like MSFS expects you to do this, as the training for landings starts you off with learning to do glide-in landings (idle power). 

Loving the discussion here BTW! Very educational, you guys are all awesome, thank you for your patience
 

21 minutes ago, Kristofski said:

IRL the yoke would not re-center, but remain pulled back or pushed forward slightly?

Yes.

If you take your hand off the yoke, the position that it moves to depends on what the pitch trim is set to.

If you're in trim, the yoke should not move if you let go of it.

23 minutes ago, Kristofski said:

I can understand trim for level flight, as it would be fatiguing to hold the yoke at a certain position for a long period. I get the concept - I just feel like its a lot of mental workload to add to the landing phase, when you can just trim for neutral (as mentioned above) and work the yoke and throttle the rest of the way down

Well, the same concept applies: It's fatiguing to hold the yoke against control pressures, whether in level flight or on the approach. And it doesn't really add a lot to the workload -- trimming becomes something that you do unconsciously: You feel that you're holding forward or back pressure, so you trim to eliminate it.

26 minutes ago, Kristofski said:

I feel like MSFS expects you to do this, as the training for landings starts you off with learning to do glide-in landings (idle power).

Whether you're doing a power-on or power-off approach doesn't really make a difference here. In each case, you're trimming for the airspeed you want to maintain on the approach. (Glider pilots do this too.)

Maybe the issue here is the concept of "trimming for airspeed" -- are you familiar with the idea that a certain position of the pitch trim corresponds to a given airspeed that the aircraft will settle at (once it reaches steady state)?

For me, trim was always a wonderful tool and its use is as simple as it gets - remove forces you don't want to have to maintain with your muscles.  Once established on climb-out I would quickly rotate trim to remove back-pressure and allow for fingertip control throughout the climb.

When descending I would hold back-pressure to slow the aircraft to my desired speed, then release pressure a little to maintain that speed.  Once more, a quick twist of the trim wheel to neutralize forces and I could relax all the way down.  Same on final, then nothing during the flare.

As another example of how important trim can be... I leased a brand new C172 one day back in 1976 - in fact, it's the aircraft in my profile photo. (note that it's so new that the second navcoms aren't yet installed - well, I guess you can't see that in the crop).  This was the first time I flew one of the new fuel-injected 172s and it had an increase in horsepower over the older aircraft I was used to.

During the first takeoff and climb-out I found the prop torque to be substantial - so much so that it took a large increase in right foot rudder pressure compared to what I was used to.  In fact, attempting to hold proper pressure, the muscles in my leg began to actually shake - my whole leg was trembling!

I turned to the FBO who was giving me a check-ride and asked whether this was normal.  He reached down and gave a quick turn on the rudder trim (something I had never used before) and voila!  no more rudder pressure and my leg said thank you!

Edited April 13Apr 13 by RandallR

1 hour ago, weaklink said:

Maybe the issue here is the concept of "trimming for airspeed" -- are you familiar with the idea that a certain position of the pitch trim corresponds to a given airspeed that the aircraft will settle at (once it reaches steady state)?

Not familiar no - I used Rod Machado's ground school PDF and a combination of youtube videos and the MSFS tutorials to get to the ~70 hours I have so far. This first 40 of which were in the VL-3, which was, arguably, easier to fly 😄 

So I was using Trim for Level Flight, and if I want to reduce airspeed, I'd reduce Throttle, and re-trim for level so I don't lose altitude. I'd never thought to trim for airspeed since other than noting a T/O position or neutral setting, the trim wheel doesn't have any indents or markings to suggest it would have other positions useful for specific speeds. Are you talking about something like, at 5% trim going to 10% trim, you'll lose X airspeed? Or are you saying that, for example, -10% trim will produce a specific airspeed at level flight while -20% will give you another specific speed? Is there a chart somewhere?

My biggest qualm with setting the trim is that I cant SEE the setting in the simulator without taking my eyes off the PFD and looking down with the camera. I'll usually cheat and switch to 3rd person camera where the UI pops up and shows you the actual trim Axis, what you have it set to relative to neutral, and also a number %. All very useful info, I'm surprised isn't on the PFD especially when you have electric trim controls. Unless its a setting you have to turn on somewhere.

11 minutes ago, Kristofski said:

So I was using Trim for Level Flight, and if I want to reduce airspeed, I'd reduce Throttle, and re-trim for level so I don't lose altitude

Reduce power.

Apply slight back pressure of the controls (to maintain altitude)

Increase power to maintain the reduced airspeed (if necessary)

Trim out the control forces.

14 hours ago, LRBS said:

 

Agreed, I learn something new every day. My question—just a curiosity, not a challenge—is whether your FCOM or the aircraft manufacturer's manual mentions using trim during flare and touchdown as a standard procedure, or is it simply a pilot technique? I'm not looking to spark any unproductive debate. 

It’s just a technique passed along by the people who taught me to fly it. 

21 minutes ago, ATRguy said:

It’s just a technique passed along by the people who taught me to fly it. 

Thank you so much for the clarification.

1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

Or are you saying that, for example, -10% trim will produce a specific airspeed at level flight while -20% will give you another specific speed?

Yes -- and not just in level flight. (See below.) But...

1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

Is there a chart somewhere?

No, and you don't need one. (I'll explain in a minute.) Besides, you'll note that the trim indicator doesn't even have a scale -- the only markings (on the Caravan) are a range for takeoff trim position.

The idea is this: Provided that the loading of the aircraft and its configuration (gear and flaps) don't change, a certain trim setting always corresponds to the same airspeed, no matter if you're level, climbing, or descending. (There are certain secondary effects that can cause small variations, but these are small enough that the general principle is still useful.)

Try this: Establish yourself in level flight with the aircraft trimmed out. Note your airspeed. Now take your hand off the yoke.

Reduce power. The airplane will start descending. Initially, the pitch attitude and airspeed will probably oscillate (this oscillation is called a phugoid), but the oscillations will gradually become smaller. (If you like, you can use the elevator to help damp out the oscillations, but don't make any trim changes.) At some point, you should be established in a stable descent. Note your airspeed. It should be close to the airspeed you had in level flight.

Now try the same thing again, except add power. The airplane will start climbing. Once you're established in a stable climb, your airpseed should again be close to what you had in level flight.

This is what's meant by trimming for airspeed.

What this means for an approach is that once you've trimmed for your approach airspeed, you won't need to touch your trim again. If you need to make adjustments to your approach angle, you'll change power accordingly, and you may make momentary elevator inputs to "help" the airplane adjust to the new approach angle (i.e. to avoid oscillations), but you won't need to adjust trim.

1 hour ago, Kristofski said:

My biggest qualm with setting the trim is that I cant SEE the setting in the simulator without taking my eyes off the PFD and looking down with the camera. I'll usually cheat and switch to 3rd person camera where the UI pops up and shows you the actual trim Axis, what you have it set to relative to neutral, and also a number %. All very useful info, I'm surprised isn't on the PFD especially when you have electric trim controls. Unless its a setting you have to turn on somewhere.

The reason that the trim setting isn't displayed on the PFD (and that there's no numerical scale on the trim indicator) is that you don't need it.

The only thing you need to know whether you're trimmed correctly are the control forces on the yoke. If you're holding a sustained forward or backward pressure on the yoke, trim until you have eliminated that pressure. That's just about all there is to it.

Edited April 13Apr 13 by weaklink

On 4/12/2026 at 7:47 PM, LRBS said:

This sounds to me like a "hangar talk" versus a normal event. Sorry to say this, but in 45 years of flying, I have never heard of a normal operation in which a pilot would flare and land using elevator trim.

...I see you're experience is in heavy airliners?

Unless you've had active experience professionally piloting a C208, then you're not an authority on 'what should be done' - neither practically nor theoretically.

That's the thing you see - commercial pilots are universally worshipped in this community, and there's a silly assumption that, because they have vast experience in a certain class or type of aircraft, that they clearly no everything about anything with wings.

This reminds me of a thread last week where someone here could not believe that I didn't personally like the videos of a certain 737 type-rated you tuber.   I explained that his videos don't actually feature simulated 737s very often, and in something like an A320 (often by his own admission), he doesn't have a clue.  Why would he?   It's not him I'm getting at here, it's the over-simplified assumption that any CPL or ATPL is a holistic, universal expert on every single type of aircraft.

Reiterating my main point, in summary, obviously you would never use trim to achieve a round out in a heavy airliner.   That does not mean that such a technique is just 'Hangar talk', as you seem to think, when performed in a GA single turbo-prop. 

Edited April 14Apr 14 by JYW

46 minutes ago, JYW said:

That's the thing you see - commercial pilots are universally worshipped in this community, and there's a silly assumption that, because they have vast experience in a certain class or type of aircraft, that they clearly no everything about anything with wings.

Reiterating my main point, in summary, obviously you would never use trim to achieve a round out in a heavy airliner.   That does not mean that such a technique is just 'Hangar talk', as you seem to think, when performed in a GA single turbo-prop. 

Most type rated pilots worked their way up from single engine aircraft so their experience isn't just with the type rating they now hold. So I wouldn't call anyone's assumption silly when conversing with a type rated commercial pilot. I don't believe there are many (if any), that believe any type rated pilot knows everything about any fixed wing aircraft.

I also wouldn't trust one source as gospel if I had questions about a particular aircraft, setup or procedure. 

2 hours ago, JYW said:

...I see you're experience is in heavy airliners?

Unless you've had active experience professionally piloting a C208, then you're not an authority on 'what should be done' - neither practically nor theoretically.

That's the thing you see - commercial pilots are universally worshipped in this community, and there's a silly assumption that, because they have vast experience in a certain class or type of aircraft, that they clearly no everything about anything with wings.

This reminds me of a thread last week where someone here could not believe that I didn't personally like the videos of a certain 737 type-rated you tuber.   I explained that his videos don't actually feature simulated 737s very often, and in something like an A320 (often by his own admission), he doesn't have a clue.  Why would he?   It's not him I'm getting at here, it's the over-simplified assumption that any CPL or ATPL is a holistic, universal expert on every single type of aircraft.

Reiterating my main point, in summary, obviously you would never use trim to achieve a round out in a heavy airliner.   That does not mean that such a technique is just 'Hangar talk', as you seem to think, when performed in a GA single turbo-prop. 

I am writing to express my strong dissatisfaction with the tone and substance of your recent remarks. This is not the first time you have made this type of disappointing remark. 

Over the course of a 45-year aviation career, accumulating more than 39,000 flight hours across a wide spectrum of aircraft—from single-engine airplanes to multi-engine transport-category jets, along with military service—I have worked alongside pilots of all backgrounds and experience levels. One principle has remained constant throughout: professional respect. I have never considered any pilot “less than” based on the type of aircraft they fly, nor have I dismissed their input outright due to differences in operational experience.

Your comments, however, suggest a dismissive and unnecessarily divisive attitude. While it is true that different aircraft categories involve different techniques and considerations, the implication that experience in transport-category aircraft somehow disqualifies a pilot from contributing meaningfully to discussions about other aircraft is both inaccurate and counterproductive. Aviation knowledge is not as compartmentalized as you portray—it is built on shared principles, cross-disciplinary understanding, and decades of accumulated judgment.

Equally concerning is the tone of your response, which appears to diminish the value of experience rather than engage with the substance of the discussion. Professional discourse in aviation—whether in the cockpit, classroom, or community—relies on mutual respect, not gatekeeping.

To be clear, I fully acknowledge that specific techniques may vary between aircraft types, including turbine singles such as the C208. However, disagreement on technique does not justify dismissing another pilot’s perspective outright, especially when that perspective is grounded in extensive real-world experience.

I would encourage you to approach future discussions with a more constructive and respectful tone. Aviation is a field where we all continue to learn—regardless of aircraft type, rating, or total time—and that learning is best supported through open, professional exchange. 

Thank you.

16 hours ago, weaklink said:

Try this: Establish yourself in level flight with the aircraft trimmed out. Note your airspeed. Now take your hand off the yoke.

Reduce power. The airplane will start descending. Initially, the pitch attitude and airspeed will probably oscillate (this oscillation is called a phugoid), but the oscillations will gradually become smaller. (If you like, you can use the elevator to help damp out the oscillations, but don't make any trim changes.) At some point, you should be established in a stable descent. Note your airspeed. It should be close to the airspeed you had in level flight.

Now try the same thing again, except add power. The airplane will start climbing. Once you're established in a stable climb, your airpseed should again be close to what you had in level flight.

This is what's meant by trimming for airspeed.

This helped a lot - thank you so much for the lesson; I tried this for about 30 mins last night while flying in and out of 3rd person so I could see the UI for the trim setting, but trying to focus on the feedback coming off the yoke. I noticed that on a descending attitude, the trim needed was indeed relative to the airspeed I wanted, for the 208 I think approach speed is around 90-85kts. I was practicing 'mid air landings' pretending the runway was at the 1000ft level and doing the flare around at 1020ft to get to 80-75kts, and I noticed that after the flare, when I adjusted trim, I was coming back to almost neutral anyway! So it makes sense to me now, that yes, you can certainly set trim to neutral before your approach, but you'd be doing more work on the way down, just to have a moment of 'less' work during/after the flare, doesn't seem worth it. Especially in the wind, once I get there.

Trim for Stable Flight, not Level flight - level is just one type of stable after all 😉 

Thank you everyone!

 

PS - re: hardware trim wheels; doesn't seem worth it now? I'm getting so much practice with the Electric Trim anyway