48 minutes ago, Noel said:

The topic here had to do with implementing modeling of combat elements.  Since you took the effort to state, 'not because "war bad", YOU made a political statement of sorts even if it was in the negative, in effect stating having the sim associate w/ combat is irrelevant to you.  It's very relevant to me and I believe developers should know how their audience sees all aspects of their product.  Here's an analogy:  if this were a thread about Grand Theft Auto and the question came, "How about if they use AI to create incredibly realistic rape scenes...."  I'd object as strongly to that was well.  And if you're really focused on staying on topic--drop it now you're the only party making an issue out of my comment.

No, you kicked off with a statement, and continue to demonstrate an overweening interest in spreading an irrelevant, off-topic sentiment in a forum that has specific policies about political commentary. 

It doesn’t belong here, and you should proselytize over in Hangar Chat or maybe Reddit, where your perspective seems to be welcome. 

Here we should just keep it to  the pros and cons of gaming. 🤙

Oh, and p.s., if you want to reach “the developers”, here you go:

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/

🤙

5 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I disagree. You CAN just jump into many of the aircraft and go flying.

I mean, how did any of us ever learn to skateboard…? 😁

Theres zero expectation that net new players would come from enhanced instructional or AI avatars for airliners, of all things. 

No, flight sim is more accessible than it’s ever been, and that’s largely been due to the wide adoption of consumer gaming hardware. 

I.e., those that want it, find it. 

If you have a bit of dedication, I agree. But I've seen plenty of those Twitch streamers I mentioned give up on the sim due to sheer frustration. And most of that frustration could be alleviated if there were better training and guidance in the sim for folks who know absolutely nothing about aviation.

When I was a kid, I bought Falcon 4.0, probably one of the first "study level" sims ever created. I think I got up in the air a few times, but ultimately gave up on it because it was way above my level. If there were some guidance though, something that kept the complexity of the sim but basically did the hard stuff for me until I was ready to do it myself, who knows... Maybe I'd be flying DCS and Falcon BMS alongside MSFS. Instead, I never flew another modern milsim again.

So, I think of the kid that tries to fly a 787 over their house. How many install MSFS but can barely get off the ground in the plane they really want to fly? How many uninstall and never try again? How many would be inspired to learn more if they had more guidance and direction in those early days/weeks/months of using the sim? That is what I'm getting at when I talk about accessibility. And I think with AI "instructors" we'll eventually be able to get there without needing to sacrifice realism. Because that was another thing, as a kid I WANTED all of those switches and systems and realism, but I needed a more interactive way to learn everything.

16 hours ago, Rimshot said:

I should have used a smiley of some sort. Of course I am aware MSFS will never outsell a game like GTA, lol. The use of the word 'doubt' was a sarcastic understatement 🙃

Fair enough, one never knows on the forums. There are some odd eggs who use extreme hyperbole as if it's the most reasonable thing in the world (not just MSFS detractors, there are some slightly odd supporters as well!). Not you. 

1 minute ago, Funky D said:

And I think with AI "instructors" we'll eventually be able to get there without needing to sacrifice realism. Because that was another thing, as a kid I WANTED all of those switches and systems and realism, but I needed a more interactive way to learn everything.

Yes, this seems like the way to go in the future. As AI gets better, this is a very natural fit - we are all using AI these days to figure out complex stuff, and it is really good. A highly tuned, highly "on-rails" teaching AI integrated into the sim (so it doesn't say crazy stuff or tell you how to cook an egg in avgas or whatever) is definitely something I'd expect to see within 2-3 years at max. 

7 hours ago, Funky D said:

as a kid I WANTED all of those switches and systems and realism, but I needed a more interactive way to learn everything.

when you were a kid there was no avsim forum, no youtube lessons, but still more than enough aviation books. now you have all these resources available, and can teach yourself, no AI needed.

I remember my flight instructor mentioned our "privileges" to fly, and there was a feeling of great pride after my first solo. I never visited any oral flight instruction course, plenty of self studying from those 3, red GLEIM" books. all you needed was interest, dedication, concentration, time, certain physical capabilities, self motivation, and lots of ambition. very unlike of any auto driving school,

no pain. no gain. that's why GTA V and Cyberpunk will always outsell MSFS 10 times.

19 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Here we should just keep it to  the pros and cons of gaming.

My comment was essentially philosophical more than 'political', and you, self-appointed hall monitor, decided to drag out what was not responded to by anyone else, thereby hijacking the thread further away from the pros and cons of gaming.   I merely gave my personal rationale as to why I don't want to see any 'combat' elements in this flight sim when the topic came up.

1 hour ago, Noel said:

why I don't want to see any 'combat' elements in this flight sim

I think we all can agree to that. now onwards to the next 20 million copies of MSFS 2028!

9 hours ago, turbomax said:

when you were a kid there was no avsim forum, no youtube lessons, but still more than enough aviation books. now you have all these resources available, and can teach yourself, no AI needed.

I remember my flight instructor mentioned our "privileges" to fly, and there was a feeling of great pride after my first solo. I never visited any oral flight instruction course, plenty of self studying from those 3, red GLEIM" books. all you needed was interest, dedication, concentration, time, certain physical capabilities, self motivation, and lots of ambition. very unlike of any auto driving school,

no pain. no gain. that's why GTA V and Cyberpunk will always outsell MSFS 10 times.

MSFS is a sim or game, depending on how you treat it. I've also always viewed flying IRL as a privilege and did all the book related studying for my PPL on my own time with a mishmash of books, DVD's and online resources.

But flying virtually in MSFS is no more of a privilege than playing GTA V or Cyberpunk. Not everyone wants to be a real pilot. I would rather our hobby grow by hooking in kids at a young age by making it accessible instead of gatekeeping it to only those who are willing to do a bunch of research outside of the sim. Maybe some of those kids will end up falling in love with aviation as a result and go on to become real pilots.

26 minutes ago, Funky D said:

MSFS is a sim or game, depending on how you treat it. I've also always viewed flying IRL as a privilege and did all the book related studying for my PPL on my own time with a mishmash of books, DVD's and online resources.

But flying virtually in MSFS is no more of a privilege than playing GTA V or Cyberpunk. Not everyone wants to be a real pilot. I would rather our hobby grow by hooking in kids at a young age by making it accessible instead of gatekeeping it to only those who are willing to do a bunch of research outside of the sim. Maybe some of those kids will end up falling in love with aviation as a result and go on to become real pilots.

I see your point, but I just don’t know how it could get much easier than being able to buy a $500 Xbox and being able to go at it in any number of built in addons.

And really, is there any doubt what Career Mode is for, other than those who want a structured experience…?

Jorg has said several times that Career represents half the player hours already.

 

FSX came with beginner lessons by Rob Machado, perhaps that's something they should include with MSFS.

17 hours ago, Funky D said:

And I think with AI "instructors" we'll eventually be able to get there without needing to sacrifice realism.

I remember someone posted here  a while ago exactly that, he was developing an AI based instructor course and asked for input from the community. Don't remember who and where, but if there really is demand for such an add-on, it could  become really successful.

3 hours ago, Funky D said:

Maybe some of those kids will end up falling in love with aviation as a result and go on to become real pilots.

the FAA is currently addressing specifically gamers for a career as ATC controllers.

https://abcnews.com/US/new-air-traffic-control-hiring-campaign-targets-gamers/story?id=131926285

https://www.flyingmag.com/faa-atc-recruiting-strategy-targets-gamers/

6 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I see your point, but I just don’t know how it could get much easier than being able to buy a $500 Xbox and being able to go at it in any number of built in addons.

And really, is there any doubt what Career Mode is for, other than those who want a structured experience…?

Jorg has said several times that Career represents half the player hours already.

 

Outside of handling all of the complexities of a complex aircraft for a new player, here are a few examples of what an AI instructor may be able to do:

• Explain every button, gauge, PFD/MFD screen, etc.
• Offer guidance and/or assistance through every phase of flight
• Critique the player when they keep making the same mistake
• Offer control assistance to help line up with the runway during landing, help smooth out the controls if the player is over controlling, etc.
• Help navigate to any airport or POI
• Offer a debrief after the flight

An AI copilot could be useful for all of us with voice assistance:

• "Hey copilot, read through the startup checklist for me"
• "What should my ITT be for takeoff in these conditions?"
• "Tune to Atlanta approach"
• "I'm stepping away, handle the flight and radio for me until I return"

As for career mode... Given the number of users posting career related questions and info related to the updated Kodiak in the MSFS forums, I think plenty of folks who want realism are messing around with career mode, myself included. Unfortunately, at this point, some people think career mode is a good indicator of how things work in real life. It has a long way to go... ATC fixes will help immensely.

6 hours ago, turbomax said:

FSX came with beginner lessons by Rob Machado, perhaps that's something they should include with MSFS.

I've brought this up a few times in the past as well... it may be nostalgia talking, but I remember those FSX lessons being much better than what we have in 2020/2024. I think it was an earlier version of the sim (maybe 2000 or 2002?) where they first offered those lessons. Rod's Private Pilot Handbook was a go-to during my PPL training, but I've always had a soft spot for his type of dad humor! Looks like he's still chugging and his books are still getting new revisions.

51 minutes ago, Funky D said:

Outside of handling all of the complexities of a complex aircraft for a new player, here are a few examples of what an AI instructor may be able to do:

• Explain every button, gauge, PFD/MFD screen, etc.
• Offer guidance and/or assistance through every phase of flight
• Critique the player when they keep making the same mistake
• Offer control assistance to help line up with the runway during landing, help smooth out the controls if the player is over controlling, etc.
• Help navigate to any airport or POI
• Offer a debrief after the flight

An AI copilot could be useful for all of us with voice assistance:

• "Hey copilot, read through the startup checklist for me"
• "What should my ITT be for takeoff in these conditions?"
• "Tune to Atlanta approach"
• "I'm stepping away, handle the flight and radio for me until I return"

As for career mode... Given the number of users posting career related questions and info related to the updated Kodiak in the MSFS forums, I think plenty of folks who want realism are messing around with career mode, myself included. Unfortunately, at this point, some people think career mode is a good indicator of how things work in real life. It has a long way to go... ATC fixes will help immensely.

Oh, I don’t disagree entirely. 

I just don’t think it’s gonna pull in a ton of new players. 

On this, I’ll stand to be corrected if it ever comes to pass. 🤙