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Tom Allensworth

Why are we never allowed to demo payware?

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How many here have bought some payware that didn

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Hi,Probably very little.Try this: buy a book from your local bookstore, read it and then return the book, telling the clerk that it was too hard to read. See what they say.Or buy a DVD movie, watch it and then tell the store you didn't like the ending.There are a ton of products that don't come with a demo mode. So as an educated consumer you do your research ahead of time and you make educated decisions.Please note I did not say anything about faulty purchases. That is a different story.Jimhttp://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-community-sigbanner.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/

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Take this example. Play Crysis demo decide if you want to buy the full game. Play the GTR 2 demo decide if you like the cars and physics in that sim... 95 % of the software do have demos both on PC and consoles... Limited of course. Books you can rent in the library, movies you can also rent and you get the full product. Payware you have to purchase that is the difference. You can try clothes or shoes in shops. You can test drive cars you want to purchase, sit in them etc.There is much more things you are allowed to try before you buy then not. Even windows XP you are allowed to try... I have much harder time finding examples of what you are not allowed to try out more then products aimed at corporations rather then home users.

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There is the technical side of it... developers would have to create some sort of trap/flag in their add on which accounted for a demonstration period or limited use area. This demo setup may be undesirable to the developer due to many reasons, including but not limited to the added time and expense of coding in the limits, maintaining a different version, and the potential for it to be quickly cracked. We are also dealing with a true niche market - the addon market for flightsims is, as compared to many other software markets, quite small. Building in the cost of a demo version might be prohibitively high as compared to the entire project. With books and movies, there are no technical issues which would preclude you from using them. (*Unless you buy a book and happen to be illiterate!) Software does have a distinction of being dependent upon the device running it, so a more open demonstration or "return" policy is welcome. (See Flight1 for the perfect example) If the software doesn't meet your TECHNICAL expectations, in performance or stability, I feel there should be no problems with returns. If software doesn't meet your ENJOYMENT expectations, due to known systems not being modeled, or other more asthetic reasons which could be pointed out in a review, this becomes much harder to justify. You can't return a bad movie, bad book, or bad album just because you didn't like it in the end.Demos help on all counts, but it adds a whole new layer to the programming which not all of today's development houses can afford. I agree - I'd love to see more demos, but I think I can understand why we don't see them too often.-Greg

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>How many here have bought some payware that didn

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I am not aware of all the scenery and such but those I have been interested in does not have a demo. However screenshots and movies go a long way here so that isn

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The difficulty is in that you would be downloading the fully working aircraft and then you'd have no incentive to pay for it - you already have it. To fix this, extra programing would have to be in place to destroy/alter files so that the aircraft no longer functioned after the demo period. This is easier to do with utilities as they are things outside of FS that interact with FS. Aircraft are in FS and to alter any file while FS is running will generally give you a nice CTD.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satellite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004, MIDCON P-401"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

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As a developer, for me the biggest issue with public demos is that they get cracked far too easily and far too often.Frankly, there is such a huge array of FS product info on the Net.Just go to YouTube and type in an FS product you're interested in... you're bound to find something...A video of the product in action is almost as good as a full demo, often.My two cents.Bryan

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No one is forced into pirating software.

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Yes if you want a try a product before buying that I feel should be a right and not try it unseen. No review on earth can tell you how it runs on your system or what you like about it. If you then want to demo you have to pirate it or just not buy the product of course.

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oqvist,Okay, I'll come out and play ...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxObviously you're fronting for one of the piracy sites and are doing some PR to try to get more of the public on your side. So I'll counter with the following ...Golly gee whiz, oqvist, didn't you know that every product sold by Flight1, and that every product sold elsewhere that uses the Flight1 "wrapper" protection scheme, has a 30 day no questions asked refund policy?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxWhat's that? You mean you actually didn't know? Well, now you do know?And now that you know, aren't you glad? Tell us how you feel about this new information. Will it be enough to get you to stop stealing? Or will you instead remain interested only in warez?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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"Totally uncalled for."Right on Jim.I've developed software for most of my career. Mike and others who make such personal attacks have no monopoly on insight into the industry, especially one that reinvents itself every few years and puts all of us who compete for development jobs back on a level playing field. In Mike's case I believe it's kind of hard to teach members what impact piracy has by making such dry statements. I know he makes no apologies for his style, but that is no excuse.My thoughts? Most products sold to commercial enterprises have demo versions offered. One could argue commercial software is more complex or is sold to (and thus funded by) those with deeper pockets that can subsidize loss, but some of these Airliner add-ons are pretty sophisticated pieces of software. And some MSFS add-on providers allow demos of their software, or have wrappers that allow for refund of money when an uninstall is invoked.On the surface I don't think it is suggestive of piracy to ask why we don't see more demos of products. Sure it can be argued demos can be cracked, but so can the products themselves. And it is stating the obvious that some seeking to try a product will turn to a pirate site with no option available.That said, I do believe turning to such sites is the wrong choice. There's many circumstances we're faced with in life we don't like. Being unable to demo a gaming product, in the grand scheme of things, is one of those circumstances we should accept. In public we need to support the industry, and universally condemn the warez sites. As I prefaced this post, several members here make their living in the industry. Even if I did not, I'd still speak up for those that do and condemn piracy. Pirates are cyber thugs, and in the same league with the punk that strong arms someone on the street for a few bucks. Ultimately, the ability for someone to put food on their table is oft stolen when their work is so easily obtainable that it can no longer be sold. We think of pirates as young kids who don't know right from wrong. I've had to prosecute people in middle age, and people in retirement. Tempt people by putting up a site to hawk warez, and it will bring out the lowest of all of us.To sum up, if there's not a product demo, vote with your wallet. MSFS add-ons, or the lack of them, won't wreck our lives. Keeping pirates in business by suggesting their sites as an alternative does wreck lives of those men and women who do such miraculous coding of these add-ons. They aren't rolling in cash, and for some the income from their add-on work is a huge help in their lives.Regards,John

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Mike obviously have a very hard time understanding my english :). Can

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".....anyway I am not here to discuss piracy... I am not promoting it as you seem to think."Thanks for your reply P

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Hi Par,If you've bought payware and found your system isn't capable of running it well I'm afraid that's down to you. You should research the product and read discussions from others who've bought it. Reviewers try to be objective and I believe they do a good job.As for your comment about downloading a pirate copy that is outrageous. You're committing theft and possibly causing the demise of the company producing the software. If that happens we all lose.Some companies do provide a way of you evaluating software before committing to a purchase. Have a look at FSDreamTeam here http://www.fsdreamteam.com/products.html who provide 10 minutes for you to evaluate Zurich.

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I have never mentioned that I download payware you have to read better. Just reread my posts I think you will understand :)Also it

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jskorna and JohnCiWhat was totally uncalled for? I was responding to the following statement by Oqvist in the post #9 immediately preceding my post #10 ..."If you then want to demo you have to pirate it or just not buy the product of course."So there isn't even a need to presume that he condones piracy, he just said that not only does he condone it, he URGES it. He wrote what he wrote in post #9 and if it contradicts he wrote in an earlier post in this thread, that's too bad. No, I hadn't read what he wrote before #9 -- I didn't need to.Again, read his #9 words ... "If you want to demo you have to pirate it ..." This is not true, the Flight1 wrapper proves that statement to be false.Yes, I inferred a motive of supporting piracy. I always do when people say "See? The developers and publishers leave us not choice but to commit piracy under circumstances that we, the pirates, will decide are warranted."Jim,You have a long history of taking the position that Hi-Fi has nothing to worry about, and you do it in a way that clearly implies that nobody else does either. I could speculate from now till the cows come home why you folks take that position but it doesn't matter because ...a) You folks have every right to expose yourselves to piracy for any reason you see fit,while:( Other developers and publishers have every right to try to protect themselves agains piracy, for any reasons they see fit.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxYou type the words that indicate you don't condone piracy either. Yet when somebody (me) comes along and espouses position :( you often immediately criticize them. But I've never seen you throw down against a Big Gun like Ron Hamilton, Jim. Ron reaches the same conclusions that I do when people write the kinds of things that Ogvist did.So the only thing that you can take issue with is my style. Well, too bad. I express my opinions forcefully so that people won't think I'm saying something like "I'm against piracy but on the other hand I'm opposed to speaking in favor of anti-piracy measures, and I'm opposed to calling obvious pirate supporters 'pirates'."xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxBy the way, Jim, have you noticed that you can no longer play YouTube music videos from either Firefox or Internet Explorer? (Certainly all three of my computers cannot.) You get a popup saying that a FLash Player update is required but this presumably is some kind of false conclusion browsers are reaching because, at least on my computers, the Flash Player update does not make the music videos playable. (Other kinds of YouTube videos remain playable with or without the Flash Player update.)This is the music industry at work, Jim, the very approach I was recommending that you kept implying could never work -- hitting the pirates where they are most vulnerable, which is the ISP points of presence.If I get frustrated it's because of a) people like Oqvist who don't even have the courtesy to practice their vile trade under cover of darkness, and :( people like you who say "Honesty " -- which was the very statement of yours back in November that triggered my public discourse on this general subject. (You don't deny making that statement, do you?)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSo I'll ask my question again, guys. What aspect of my post #10 was totally uncalled for?

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"So I'll ask my question again, guys. What aspect of my post #10 was totally uncalled for?"When someone posts......"Obviously you're fronting for one of the piracy sites and are doing some PR"Edit: ...and add this comment:"Will it be enough to get you to stop stealing? Or will you instead remain interested only in warez?".....they better make sure they have all their ducks in a row. I've seen lesser comments construed as libel. If you don't think that was uncalled for then I don't know what boundaries cannot be crossed here anymore. Capice?JC

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That's ridiculous.I'm watching a music video on youtube on Firefox right now. Trust me, it's you, not the music industry.

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You're absolutely right, John.Let me remove the libelous aspect by inserting the words "In my opinion" before the statement you found offensive. By making this correction it is now absolutely factual because that is in fact my opinion.Thus, Oqvist, I retract my earlier statement and hereby offer a pubic apology for it. Similarly, I publically apologize for any other statement your or anybody else found to be offensive.Just behave as if I had inserted the words "In my opinion", as I am now going to do below in rewriting my post #10 ...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxoqvist,Okay, I'll come out and play ...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxIn my opinion you are fronting for one of the piracy sites and are doing some PR to try to get more of the public on your side. So I'll counter with the following ...Golly gee whiz, oqvist, didn't you know that every product sold by Flight1, and that every product sold elsewhere that uses the Flight1 "wrapper" protection scheme, has a 30 day no questions asked refund policy?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxIn my opinion I have a right to ask the following rhetorical questions ... What's that? You mean you actually didn't know? Well, now you do know?And now that you know, aren't you glad? Tell us how you feel about this new information. Will it be enough to get you to stop engaging in endorsing the practice of what, in my opinion, is stealing? Or will you instead remain interested only in warez as, in my opinion, may very well be your posture?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxNow ... If somebody wants to delete my posts, or lock the thread, or delete the thread, or ban me from the site, that's fine. I will not stand idly by while people who are, in my opinion, aiding and abetting pirates, get treated with kid gloves.

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I am not even wasting energy on you Mike. I am sorry you failed... I am going to have to report your post though and urge you to remove all the comments about me being a pirate, stealing or whatever you try with.

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