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FS 11 - New Rendering Engine?

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All,With the release of Train2, I've read that FS will have a new rendering engine. Is this true?Tim

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I think that the answer now is really TBD.However my guess is that it will be modified and extended version of the DX10 preview engine- one that is more fully developed as there will have been a whole lot more energy put into it by the core team.I think that threading will be even more fleshed out as it is now clear that the hardware side is all about cores, not sheer speed- process more threads simultaneously, not a single thread as quickly as possible.I'm one that is running FSX today quite acceptably. Sure I'm not all sliders at max, but I'm at least 75% on all of them with a Q6600.Tim

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My understanding is that ACES plans to learn lessons from how Train Sim 2 works out. They are certainly trying things out in Train Sim that they learned from working on FSX, both the good and the bad.How much of a new rendering engine we will see will depend on a lot of things: time and budget, of course, as well as DX10. If the new Flight Sim is totally dependant on DX10, you could expect that Windows XP will be not supported, however this is just my personal guess, and not an official statement of fact. Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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Microsoft ESP is the "new rendering engine" for the core platform. Here are some links for further information:Microsoft ESP:http://www.microsoft.com/esp/FAQ:http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/esp/cc442497.aspxMicrosoft ESP Developer Center:http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/esp/default.aspxMicrosoft ESP SDK:http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa155301.aspxGiven that ESP is not aimed at the "simmer market" but is aimed at the much more lucrative "commercial level serious games market," what are the some of the implications and benefits to those of us who belong to the "simmer market?"First and formost is the simple fact that by developing the core platform for the "commercial level serious games market," ACES simply must invest the time and money to create a more stable, expansible and robust sim engine. Since the exact same core platform will be used for any other title ACES develops (Train Sim, Flight Sim, xxx Sim), the immediate benefits should be obvious!Secondly, and by no means less important, ACES must also invest the time and resources into improving both the toolsets needed (modeling, gauge programming, scenery, flight modeling, etc.) and the accompanying documentation. This will translate into a huge improvement for all FS 3rd party developers, both payware and freeware.All of this is based on current public information, but I can say that from what has been revealed, that as both a "consumer" myself as well as a "3rd party developer" I am very much impressed and excited about the future of the FS franchise.I am very confident that FSvNext will prove to be a watershed moment...

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Bill,Do you believe that vNext will feature real-world physics?

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Ya, I agree Bill. The next version of flight sim should be much more developed and stable. Now the ACES has a Core team working on the rendering engine. The flight sim team should not be bogged down as much waiting on a stable platform (to see their results) compared to other version of flight sim.

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Great info on this thread. I also believe that since MS has a central team working on the rendering engine, they can focus more of their efforts on other tracks for FSNext. Now we just need a go-live date like October 2009 for example.Tim

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So we will have FSvnext + Windows 7 in 2010?I'm not sure about this "new rendering engine". I know its been said that addon backward compatibility is not a given. I've also seen a "what-if" trial balloon floated about procedural scenery elimination. scott s..

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Maybe I missed something, but ESP looks exactly like FSX right now....

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>>I'm not sure about this "new rendering engine". I know its>been said that addon backward compatibility is not a given. >I've also seen a "what-if" trial balloon floated about>procedural scenery elimination. >>scott s.>.>I'd say, keep all your source files...gmax, xml, etc.For example the seasons tifs or what-not that you might have made--you probably will still be able to use these, but you'll have to use FS11 SDK tools to re-process them, would be my guess.I'd hope the pro's definitely outweigh the cons.RhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.16 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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>Maybe I missed something, but ESP looks exactly like FSX>right now....>>+1

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CorrectESP2 is what will be deveolped according to what I recall but I am old so dont trust my memoryI have not looked into it since last year when it was introduced

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>Maybe I missed something, but ESP looks exactly like FSX>right now....>>ESP is a growing system. As the Core team works on improving the engine, the simulation, etc, those upgrades will go into Train Sim, new versions of FS and updates to ESP.ESP is essentially the simulation platform without any of the game UI on top of it, so that the companies that license the technology can build their own interfaces on top of it.

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I have read this thread with a sinking feeling. The last rumor I heard was that aircraft built to SP2 specs would be compatible with VNext. According to this thread this will most likely not be the case. Oh well, if we are starting from scratch I just hope the engine improvements are worth it.Best Regards, Donald T. :-wave

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Donald,I really can't see how anything in this thread would cause a "sinking feeling." There's nothing in this thread but the wild guesses of a bunch of people.The only real fact here is the existence of ESP ... which, as has been pointed out, is FSX packaged differently so some people marketing it to the government can do some things with it that the consumer license really didn't anticipate. Some smart person at Microsoft realized there was money in this, so they repackaged the game in such a way that the government could buy it without the press going ape that they were spending tax dollars on a "game." And also to get people "right with the license" so-to-speak.Pretty smart.The bigger issue is the reorg (my view.)If you look at how ACES "appears" to be being reorganized, then one might imagine that the Flight Simulator group will become a customer of ESP (the Core Group). The Core Group would be responsible for building "The World." The Flight Simulator group would then be responsible for building an airplane/airport simulation within that world. (And presumeably, the "Trains Group" would be responsible for building a train simulation inside that world, and so on ... and so on.)You could then buy whichever pieces you need or want. In the end, they will have built Second Life, but at "Google Earth" resolution. ;) Thankfully, we'll still be able to fly in it.As a customer, the Flight Simulator group would be able to make demands of the Core Group, one presumes. "Give me real world physics, please" would be my first demand of the Core Group, so that I could fly under the bridges in their world without running into invisible walls. (Extrapolate this request to understand what it really represents.)One presumes that the Flight Simulator group would be responsible for all the flight-specific physics, and the Trains group would be responsible for all the train physics (if there are any beyond simple Newtonics ... hey, I just made up a word!).And the Military/Industrial Group could be responsible for building their simulations separate from the consumer division. If you manage people, and you manage them in Seattle ... that's probably an important consideration in how you organize your company.Sounds simple enough. Lots of companies are organized this way. But I have to remind you, this is just one idiots wild guess. I have zero inside knowledge, and I don't think anyone else in this thread does either.If there is anything to fear, it seems to me, it would be the Core Group telling the Flight Simulator group "no, you can't have real world physics because we're too busy making cloud shadows or wisps of grass or 3D leaves." Or something like that. How would the FS group respond? Would/could they stop being a customer?To address your concern, however, under this scenario of organization, the airplane designers could care less what the mesh is of The World and can design airplanes independent of everything else that happens in The World.So, I think your concern is probably not yet warranted, even by and among the community of guessers.

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Hey Kevin,That's a fairly close description of the new studio layout, except that Core is a group of its own, and ESP is just another customer of Core (like Flight and Trains), so Core has to balance requests from all 3 consumers of their output. Luckily we aren't trying to ship all 3 products at the same time, Trains and ESP V2 will be out sometime next year, Flight and ESP V3 will be out at some point beyond that - so basically we'll ship a new version of ESP that is roughly equiv with the latest released entertainment title.And if anyone is going to be in/near Anaheim, CA July 18-20, the Trains team will be doing the first public showing of TS2 at the National Train Show (http://www.tsinsider.com/en-US/team/Pages/MeetusattheNationalTrainShow!.aspx), so you can see what's been updated in the engine so far there :->And if you happen to live near Redmond, WA, and have played any of the Train Sim products available, the Trains team is looking for some folks to do usability playtesting (http://www.tsinsider.com/en-US/team/Pages/TrainSimulatorFansWanted.aspx)

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You are correct, but you have to remember that it is a platform. Microsoft has created a virtual world platform to expand upon and develop multiple types of simulations on both for professional and causal uses.To expand the platform and enhance it will be much easier and more cost effective than having to re-write an entire new game engine each time.I think we will see some incredible stuff with FS11. Remember FSX was developed before DX10 and Vista were even really ready for production.Windows 7 promises new touch technology so instead of using a mouse you can touch your instruments in the cockpit.I am rather looking forward to FS11...and TS2As a matter of fact I wouldn't wonder that by FS12 and TS3 that they come together as a package you can subscribe to. Both using the same platform.

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TimThank you for this information... its great to have you guys around to clarify for us when questions like this come up.

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>That's a fairly close description of the new studio layout,>except that Core is a group of its own, and ESP is just>another customer of Core (like Flight and Trains), so Core has>to balance requests from all 3 consumers of their output.Thanks, Tim. That really was the major point of my initial post and reference links.Since ESP is "just another customer of Core," it is my honest expectation that the "requests" from ESP's commercial/gov't customers will drive development by the Core Team to even higher levels than otherwise might occur... ;)

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>I have read this thread with a sinking feeling. The last>rumor I heard was that aircraft built to SP2 specs would be>compatible with VNext. According to this thread this will most>likely not be the case. Oh well, if we are starting from>scratch I just hope the engine improvements are worth it.Donald, I honestly don't see any reason at all for any anxiety. It may prove necessary to process existing FSX SP2/DX10 compliant content through some conversion utility, but if so I expect that to be relatively painless.Keep in mind that ACES has a lot invested in their own, in-house modeling too! ;)

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It is also important to point out that each team is not limited to only their specific area in terms of features. For example, the Train Sim team is doing the majority of the work on an editor, which will also be included in ESP. Generally, items that are common to many products are done by the Core team, but if the team is already fully scheduled the product teams are able to commit their own resources to the feature if they feel it is important enough to their product.__________________Steve HeijsterGraphics ProgrammerMicrosoft Game Studios

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After reading this thread, especially the two posts from inside the studio so to speak, I am very encouraged and excited like Bill to see what FS11 brings us. I too think FS11 will be a watershed release for the FS franchise.

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Excuse me for being sceptical but were we not promised all sorts of great things in respect of FSX?Best and Warm RegardsAdrian Wainer

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