phil747fan

and now you think they will let you rest lol ......

Dave, there is already some Boeing data in PFPX for some 747-400 profiles. Phil

ex Canadian ones ...

i prefer the idea of him with a flight attendant ...

Jason, do you need any on tech for it? Phil

never heard about operations letting a plane continuing the flight after an engine out at the beginning of the flight BAW is the only carrier that did that. staying on hold and dumping fuel is what is to be done or was done with the 3 operators i work for. the discussions that came after the report of BAW has been always with the same ending, your burn your fuel. you dump the fuel but you do not continue your flight. the 747-400 is meant to operate with 4 engines on regular operations, we are talking about a flight that last at least 9 to 11 hours or more on three engines. but in the same time we operated with 180 min as EROPS .... not discussing the fact that the 747400 cannot do it but why not cutting one engine to save the wear and tear? ....

Michael, of the 777 i do not know which data has been used for the input into the fmc to create the fuel burn and the altitude opt/max. what i know is when the profiles has been create Kyle used them and found them good for what they were doing while on beta testing phase again for the 777s. the profiles created by Doug are not created by FPPM thus the confusion. they are created with the new version of BPS (boeing performance software) as there is no CI charts in FPPM. you can get the most precise performance data with this tool and they are used by airlines for the flightplanning side or the companies selling that service. can we hear from different beta testers about that side on the 747-400 V3 versus PFPX and performance. i imagine you are not the only testing it ... all the best. Phil

Doug Snow is the one that did most of the original Boeing profiles for PFPX. again i do not know what Mikita used for his profiles but i know the tool Doug used and if there is an issue this is not from PFPX. and i do not know what perfs was used for the profile you used, my data are from boeing for the ge f engine. i will try to find some tools to understand the planning of a 747 because it is the hardest to understand on the operation of that plane .... enjoy the week end. Phil

Michael is talking about pmdg v3.

Michael, i created a profile in lbs for you using the one coming from pfpx and certainly with Doug perf. if you look my numbers they are not exactly like yours but i took your route and fuel that you took ... now the max climb thrust weight for a 747-400f in lbs with up to isa+10 is 39200 with bank angle 1.2 or 33 degrees for 680000 lbs opt is34800 for 720000 lbs we got max 38000 and opt 33600.th it is real number not the fmc nor pfpx and i think you have to understand the planning of a flight. using max or close to instead of opt will give you only plus 1% of fuel burning so unless you are close to the red band this is not an issue especially in the sim world ...fmc is not to be used for flightplanning even if some are promoting it .... 1) check with the team if they input the 400F data for fmc programmation or what kind of data they used ... 2) oh yes it matters because in the past pmdg used one kind of perf the 747-400 ge pax for all versions and i can t tell you for what you are testing. the difference on fuel burn was around 10% more than the real number, maybe flight simulator envelope ... 3) maybe an issue there can you try with different profiles from pfpx and post your finding or pm if you prefer then we can investigate where the issue is? 4) the numbers may have help you. so your next to do thing. now on the real world planning the fppm is giving me the go to 38000 with 700000 granted that i will need 21 min 16900 lbs and 147 nm. at 680000 the opt in the lrc chart is given to 35000 and 38000 is given also and this is not the max for boeing. hope this help. Phil ******************************************************************************** F O R I N F O R M A T I O N O N L Y ******************************************************************************** CARGOLUX FLIGHTPLAN - IFR CLX5 MICHAEL KLAX-PANC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALL WEIGHTS IN POUNDS (LB) STD 22JAN/0640Z -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OFP 1 - PREPARED 22JAN/0621Z BY PHILIPPE PRAPROTNIK CLX5 MICHAEL/B747-400F CF6 ROUTE: KLAXPANC-MAN DEP: KLAX/LAX 24L ELEV 128 FT COST INDEX: 110 TTL G/C DIST: 2038 NM ARR: PANC/ANC 07L ELEV 151 FT INIT ALT: FL360 TTL F/P DIST: 2078 NM FUEL BIAS: 0.0 % TTL AIR DIST: 2125 NM AVG WIND CMP: HD010 KT ALT: PAEN/ENA 20R ELEV 100 FT 56 NM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIG DOW PAX CARGO TOTAL ULOAD LIM ZFW TOW LDW STANDARD 363983 204971 64446 LDW MAX 634931 874999 666016 PLN 568954 702687 601570 ACT ...... ...... ...... FUEL CORR ENDUR TRIP 101117 ........ 04:28 10 PCT 8813 ........ 00:27 ALTN PAEN 6291 ........ 00:15 INTL HOLD 9834 ........ 00:30 MIN T/O 126055 ........ 05:40 ..................................... EXTRA 7678 ........ 00:23 CAPTAINS SIGNATURE (....) TAXI 2000 ........ 00:10 RELEASE 135733 ........ 06:13 I ACCEPT THIS OFP AND I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE PLANNED ROUTE AND AERODROMES FUEL TANK CAP 361779 LB / MAX EXTRA FUEL 72124 LB LIM BY LDW TRIP CORR FOR 15000 LB TOW INCR: +1793 LB / 15000 LB TOW DECR: -2258 LB 2000 FT LOWER: -1203 LB / EET 04:28 CLB: 250/340/84 DES: 84/340/250 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KLAX STD 06:40Z/22:40L ETD 06:40Z ACT OFBL .... EST T/O 06:50Z ACT T/O .... PANC STA 11:40Z/02:40L ETA 11:23Z ACT ONBL .... EST LDG 11:18Z ACT LDG .... SKD 05:00 PLN 04:43 TTL BLCK .... EST FLT 04:28 TTL FLT .... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ATC ROUTE: N0493F360 FIXIT3 RZS J88 SNS J110 OAK/N0494F380 DCT BOXER B453 MDO YESKA6 ALTERNATE PLANNING -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALTN/RWY DIST ALT/FL MSA COMP TIME FUEL DIFF ROUTE PAEN/20R 56 8000 100 HD001 00:15 6291 - TED V334 ENA MOST CRITICAL MORA 11200 FT AT BOXER -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AWY WAYPOINT MT ALT MSA FREQ TAS LEG FUEL REM / USED LEG ACC -FIR NAME ISA WND/SPD GS REM POSITION ETO / ATO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- KLAX/24L 128 045 133.7 / 2.2 LOS ANGELES INTL 2078 N3356.9 W11824.2 ...../..... FIXIT3 DLREY 251 *CLB 045 3 130.5 / 5.4 03 00.03 M03 187/011 2075 N3356.6 W11827.9 ...../..... FIXIT3 ENNEY 256 *CLB 045 2 130.1 / 5.8 00 00.03 M02 206/014 2073 N3356.5 W11830.0 ...../..... FIXIT3 NAANC 252 *CLB 045 7 128.4 / 7.5 02 00.05 P04 264/042 2066 N3355.9 W11838.6 ...../..... FIXIT3 MUELR 252 *CLB 045 11 126.4 / 9.5 02 00.07 P04 272/059 2055 N3354.8 W11851.9 ...../..... FIXIT3 FIXIT 288 *CLB 045 7 125.3 / 10.6 01 00.08 P05 275/073 2048 N3358.4 W11859.2 ...../..... FIXIT3 IKAYE 341 *CLB 111 10 124.1 / 11.8 02 00.10 P06 277/089 2038 N3408.5 W11900.6 ...../..... FIXIT3 SCHOR 288 *CLB 111 20 121.7 / 14.3 03 00.13 P07 277/113 2018 N3418.7 W11921.4 ...../..... FIXIT3 RZS 288 *CLB 111 114.90 24 119.3 / 16.6 03 00.16 SAN MARCUS SANTA BAR P06 274/127 1994 N3430.5 W11946.2 ...../..... *TOC 313 FL360 111 493 16 117.9 / 17.9 03 00.19 P07 273/123 406 1978 N3443.5 W11956.9 ...../..... J88 CEANO 313 FL360 111 493 47 115.2 / 20.5 06 00.25 P06 270/131 406 1932 N3522.1 W12029.2 ...../..... J88 *BDRY 312 FL360 075 493 13 114.5 / 21.3 02 00.27 -KZOA P06 270/133 406 1918 N3533.1 W12038.5 ...../..... J88 ROBIE 312 FL360 075 493 31 112.7 / 23.0 05 00.32 P06 267/136 405 1887 N3558.8 W12100.5 ...../..... J88 GOALI 312 FL360 082 493 35 110.7 / 25.0 05 00.37 P06 265/140 406 1852 N3627.5 W12125.4 ...../..... J88 SNS 311 FL360 082 117.30 493 15 109.9 / 25.8 03 00.40 SALINAS P06 264/141 407 1837 N3639.8 W12136.1 ...../..... J110 OAK 322 FL360 082 116.80 492 70 106.2 / 29.5 09 00.49 OAKLAND P06 259/147 433 1766 N3743.5 W12213.4 ...../..... J110 *BDRY 316 FL360 112 494 174 97.4 / 38.3 24 01.13 -KZSE P08 245/126 467 1592 N4013.4 W12407.0 ...../..... *CLB 314 FL380 074 494 36 95.6 / 40.1 05 01.18 P08 241/114 474 1556 N4044.1 W12431.5 ...../..... DCT BOXER 314 FL380 074 501 141 88.3 / 47.4 17 01.35 P11 235/077 498 1416 N4243.0 W12610.8 ...../..... -------------------------------- OCEANIC ENTRY --------------------------------- [ ] LR NAV ACCUR CHECK AT __:__Z CAPT _______ STBY _______ FO _______ [ ] RVSM ALTIMETER CHECK AT __:__Z CAPT _______ STBY _______ FO _______ [ ] COMPASS HDG CHECK AT __:__Z CAPT _______ STBY _______ FO _______ [ ] HF CHECK AT __:__Z SIGNATURE (....) ______________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- B453 KYLLE 319 FL380 010 499 48 86.1 / 49.6 06 01.41 -KZAK P12 234/064 505 1368 N4326.4 W12639.4 ...../..... ---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0241 NM BEFORE KANUA EET 01:46 ----------------- B453 KANUA 318 FL380 010 495 287 73.6 / 62.1 34 02.15 P10 207/035 514 1080 N4741.5 W12946.0 ...../..... B453 VIDKU 315 FL380 010 495 37 72.0 / 63.7 04 02.19 P10 205/034 515 1044 N4813.6 W13011.9 ...../..... B453 TAMRU 314 FL380 010 494 50 69.9 / 65.8 06 02.25 P09 203/033 514 994 N4857.3 W13048.1 ...../..... B453 SIMLU 313 FL380 010 493 72 66.9 / 68.8 08 02.33 P08 199/030 513 922 N5000.3 W13142.6 ...../..... B453 *BDRY 312 FL380 010 493 6 66.6 / 69.1 01 02.34 -CZVR P08 199/030 513 915 N5005.6 W13147.4 ...../..... B453 KURTT 312 FL380 010 493 7 66.3 / 69.4 01 02.35 P08 198/029 513 908 N5011.9 W13153.0 ...../..... B453 PETPA 310 FL380 010 493 57 63.9 / 71.8 06 02.41 P07 194/028 511 851 N5100.3 W13241.1 ...../..... ---------------- CLASS II EXIT 0063 NM BEFORE NAKBI EET 02:42 ----------------- B453 NAKBI 309 FL380 010 492 72 61.0 / 74.8 09 02.50 P07 190/025 510 779 N5200.3 W13343.9 ...../..... B453 METPA 308 FL380 010 492 72 58.0 / 77.8 08 02.58 P07 188/023 509 707 N5300.3 W13450.2 ...../..... ---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0013 NM BEFORE KATCH EET 03:05 ----------------- B453 KATCH 306 FL380 010 491 73 55.0 / 80.8 09 03.07 -PAZA P06 187/023 508 634 N5400.0 W13600.0 ...../..... ---------------- CLASS II EXIT 0385 NM BEFORE MDO EET 03:17 ----------------- ---------------- CLASS II ENTRY 0322 NM BEFORE MDO EET 03:25 ----------------- ---------------- CLASS II EXIT 0137 NM BEFORE MDO EET 03:47 ----------------- B453 MDO 293 FL380 015 115.30 492 471 35.7 / 100.0 56 04.03 MIDDLETON ISLAND P07 216/023 493 163 N5925.3 W14621.0 ...../..... *TOD 308 FL380 015 492 24 34.7 / 101.0 03 04.06 P07 216/023 499 139 N5945.2 W14647.7 ...../..... YESKA6 SOBGE 307 *DES 090 77 34.1 / 101.6 10 04.16 M17 178/022 61 N6048.5 W14817.1 ...../..... YESKA6 YESKA 273 *DES 100 33 33.6 / 102.1 07 04.23 M17 153/004 29 N6100.0 W14920.0 ...../..... YESKA6 TED 281 151 100 113.15 350 21 32.5 / 103.3 05 04.28 ANCHORAGE M25 002/006 362 8 N6110.0 W14957.6 ...../..... YESKA6 PANC 271 151 100 8 32.6 / 103.1 00 04.28 STEVENS ANCHORAGE IN N6110.4 W14959.8 ...../..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WIND INFORMATION - OBS 22/JAN 00:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (CLIMB) CEANO OAK BOXER FL350 277/123 -48 FL400 269/120 -54 FL400 260/133 -53 FL420 237/068 -47 FL280 278/115 -33 FL380 270/128 -52 FL380 260/144 -52 FL400 237/074 -46 FL210 277/092 -20 FL360 271/131 -50 FL360 260/147 -50 FL380 236/077 -45 14000 269/059 -9 FL340 272/135 -47 FL340 259/151 -48 FL360 230/075 -46 7000 235/023 0 FL320 272/130 -43 FL320 259/142 -44 FL340 224/073 -46 KANUA SIMLU NAKBI KATCH FL420 214/034 -46 FL420 203/030 -47 FL420 196/026 -48 FL420 194/026 -49 FL400 211/036 -46 FL400 202/030 -47 FL400 193/025 -48 FL400 191/024 -49 FL380 208/036 -46 FL380 199/030 -48 FL380 190/025 -49 FL380 187/023 -51 FL360 199/032 -49 FL360 192/031 -51 FL360 187/027 -52 FL360 182/024 -52 FL340 188/029 -51 FL340 185/032 -54 FL340 185/029 -54 FL340 177/024 -54 (DESCENT) FL370 207/025 -50 FL300 187/044 -55 FL220 184/038 -46 15000 183/025 -31 7000 177/011 -14 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- END FLIGHTPLAN 00465 CLX5 MICHAEL KLAX-PANC 22JAN2017

Michael, are you using the beta version of the PMDG or the previous version? if this is the previous version did you check in a performance manual what are the perf data? which profile of PFPX are you using? what is your final report on fuel and flight time? Phil

Mike, while enroute is different story than starting a complete flight between 9 and 11 hours with only 3 engines in that case we are more on the scenario written of ferry ....airbus or boeing in that case as we had both for a while ... for the flights we were doing there is no way that at 400 feet a captain will continue the flight. i do not know about your airline policies or the regulators. if you read the report of that incident they finished with a mayday at the end and 5.8t remained in the tanks ... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/542302bfe5274a1317000bd7/Boeing_747-436__G-BNLG_06-06.pdf depending on the regulations the diversion can be made for safety reasons and the crew is the only one but when ops is in mind it can be a little different even if the crew is the only one in the air .... glad to have that conversation not in the air .... Phil

oh yes Simon the way the 747 is built , is really overkill ... and designed on table in the 60s with safety in mind. in every part of electrical, pneumatic and hydraulic there is always a back up. i enjoy the tone of the discussion.

Simon, that is true we agree to disagree ... it is already said what if? imagine what if the diversion didnt went well when a second engine issue will happen what if in the middle of the atlantic? ... they had the engine issue at 400 feet just starting the climb they took a chance and it works but doesnt mean it has to be done ... and if you look of the operation of a engine out ferry operation which in the AFM appendix 4 there is some lines about max weight to operate and where to operate a ferry flight and being cautious to have enough alternate airports and using route to avoid icing conditions, again with no pax nor load so this is has everything to with it. i was still working in ops when it happens and we had EROPS ETOPS 180 for 747-400 and it is not a twin ...we had a few diversions after that and we never had a flight over 3 hours on 3 engines ... they strechted: they were lucky. it was a premiere for an airline to push the boundary of the 747-400 and it went well. but again im no more in the industry and things may have changed but i was lucky that i never to be in that situation i do not imagine our chief pilot nor director of operations ....

the AFM says a different story ...appendix 4. seems one operator strechted the ferry operation that should be operated only with no cargo load and pax ....

Simon, could you point me out in any FCOM, FCTM, QRH where you can conduct an international flight with water crossing intentionally on 3 engines with over 9 hours flying time? i never heard about doing it in the three operations i was dispatching 747-744. Phil ps: because except for ferry purpose there is no way load or pax should be on a ferry flight ....

guys, the profile if fed properly is not the one to blame .... Phil ps i have a wonderful 748f profile that i cant wait to test ....

in the old time of classic and beginning of -400s while dispatching we had a little manual with acceptable airports for diversion (called preference ones) and the one listed for emergency only as the maintenance will be hard to get or even getting pax attention. i assume and think that some 747 operators are still doing it ... do not forget too that politics made some diversion airports not available depending of your operations and your country diplomatic ....or not.

a fcom has a lot of option can t wait to see what needed as i have a lot of info for companies not shown here but i will wait nothing else can be done as i asked Ryan with no answer also ...

Kyle, what do you need (if no secret of course due not released yet) as a list to create a company config for a specific aircraft? Phil

got downgraded from 787-9 to 767-300er and it was quite an experience for the short hop we had. finally the 767 is better than it was in my memory .... cyvr to cyyz ... do not want to talk about cyxy cyvr into the crj lol ....

Merci.

only on RR engines ...

thank you so much ... 343 in a beauty livery.

is there a chance we can see some Air Canada pictures of your models?