It's a Sad Day When it gets like this .. Orbx is closed

[Guest roddymod]

Products being stolen at a rate of "hundreds per second". :( Dream on.

[rightseater 0]

Products being stolen at a rate of "hundreds per second". :( Dream on.

That's what I was questioning earlier. At that rate I believe it would be 360,000 illegal copies an hour assuming 100 were being stolen each second. Obviously they misspoke, but there general point remains. There's no excuse for even one pirated copy.

[Mango 0]

Products being stolen at a rate of "hundreds per second". :( Dream on.

Obviously the correct term would be - there are hundreds of seeds open... Wake up !

[StevenW 0]

Pathetic, simply pathetic. I've spent the last few hours studying up on piracy and I'm just disgusted with what I've learned. I've got to believe some of the posts I have seen seemingly in support of such criminal behavior is nothing more than the author searching for like minded people to help justify there actions, and perhaps relieve there own guilt. Such a shame the direction this world is headed. I weep for the future.

Glad to see that after a few hours studying you are now an expert... As for some of the posts here, just because someone doesn't agree about the level of damage piracy does does not mean they support it. Anyone using the "economy", "just a student", "they rip us off", etc arguments are using an excuse for crappy behaviour. You do no have a 'right' to something because you want it.As a person that has every ORBX product (paid for) except Hervey Bay I would feel rather put out if this is some stunt.

[rightseater 0]

Glad to see that after a few hours studying you are now an expert... As for some of the posts here, just because someone doesn't agree about the level of damage piracy does does not mean they support it. Anyone using the "economy", "just a student", "they rip us off", etc arguments are using an excuse for crappy behaviour. You do no have a 'right' to something because you want it.As a person that has every ORBX product (paid for) except Hervey Bay I would feel rather put out if this is some stunt.

See Geof, this is why I need you to put that good word in for me.Who said anything about being an expert? I've read and re-read my post several times now and not once did I say anything about being an expert. I simply made the effort to consult with a few aquaintances of mine in FS addon development and compare what they say to what I found at certain pirate sights and elsewhere. Please leave your misguided comments at the door.Further study of what I actually wrote will show you that my comments were regarding a few posts in which the author appeared to support piracy, but I never once claimed any of them to be in this thread. That opinion includes posts from a similiar thread or two I frequented in the hangar chat forum.Once again Geof, do you see my point now. Tom, anybody. Mod me up here.

[snave 0]

It would be amusing to see how many developers are using fully licensed copies of Photoshop, 3DStudio, Visual Studio, XMLSpy etc to create their commercial products.

Yes, I would be interested to see just how honest ALL developers actually are, given that none are ever subject to independent scrutiny. Developers steal, just the same as customers steal. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. The disappointing thing here is only that the developer is now only cutting off their nose to spite their own face. The illegal copies continue to circulate, the legitimate purchaser will now not be able to buy, or will - thanks to this thread - be forced to think twice about making a purchase from a developer who seem intent on withdrawing from the market. Ergo, to obtain the goods all they need to do is d/l the illegal version. Who wins? Who loses?Guess what? Life goes on without ORBX. But their business doesn't go on without us.No-one denies piracy is a problem, but how some choose to deal with it IS. It's a very shortsighted business model, and that does not bode well for the longterm support for the legitimate consumer. Which is sufficient justification for not buying from them in the first place. Perhaps they should trust their legitimate customers and future customers as much as they distrust the small rogue element and actually turn their attentions to dealing with the rogues, not just whining about it?

[Guest UlfB]

Orbx reopened :( Information here http://orbxsystems.com/forums/index.php?topic=13510.0

[EngineRoom 205]

I've been around MSFS to remember when there wasn't so many addon developers and publishers. We've seen the market for these products grow tremendously over the last decade or so, and it's all because of the growth of the Internet and high-speed Internet access. Without the Internet or broadband I would bet the vast majority of the companies we are familiar with in the hobby today would not exist. The internet gives them an easy and economical way of publishing and selling their wares - or at least a hell of a lot easier and cheaper than producing thousands of discs and finding distributors for them around the world.However, the very same facility that allows developers to sell and distribute their products so easily also makes it equally simple for someone to pirate those products. It's a double edged sword.Unfortunately, if you publish your products in a digital media format on the Internet, they *will* be pirated. No amount of screaming, stamping your feet, threats, or moralistic diatribes is going to stop that. As harsh as it sounds, if you can't bear to see your work pirated, then don't publish it on the Internet!Developers/publishers who integrate increasingly complex and intricate anti-piracy measures into their software are fighting a losing battle - there will always be someone out there who will outsmart your security measures. Legitimate customers who are increasingly forced to jump through hoops just to get the software they have paid for to work are just getting more and more disillusioned about the whole thing.Then of course we have the whole quality and support issue surrounding the hobby. The industry is completely unregulated. With companies based all over the world, selling their products via the Internet to customers all over the world. What happens if I buy a product that I am not happy with? A great many developers and publishers have a "no refund" policy, even though that is illegal in many of the countries they sell their products in. The nature of the business and the way the transaction takes place means many of these developers can simply take my money and then tell me to take a running jump if I'm not happy with the product. Likewise we all know of developers who are notorious for releasing buggy or unfinished products, with poor quality and even worse support. There are some developers who strut around FS-related forums making snide remarks, bullying other members, acting like they are God's Gift to the Human Race, and quite frankly their attitude stinks.I believe we have a choice, one of three things can happen:i) The current situation continues. Developers continue down the dead end road they are now with regards to rather pointless anti-piracy measures that can be cracked in very short order by those determined and smart enough to do so. The developers panic because they see their products on torrent sites, convince themselves they are losing so much money, become increasingly hostile and belligerent to their customer base, and continue to raise their prices in light of falling sales. The hobby dies a slow and painful death.ii) Developers integrate online authentication for their products at *every* use. It's a pretty solid way to prevent the majority of piracy, but there are an awful lot of people who don't want to pay for software that is ultimately dependant on a small company maintaining its servers into the future. Implementing an online verification at every use will eventually lead to an even further reduction of the customer base because an awful lot of us don't want to hand over money for something that we can't use when and where we want.iii) Take a similar line to Aerosoft - accept that piracy is a fact of life in this business, and trust in the good will of the legitimate customers who will continue to buy your products, provided they are of good quality and well supported.I think the only feasible long term solution is (iii). I don't believe that developers are doing everything they can to reduce piracy to the minimum. Just throwing in overly convoluted anti-piracy measures into the latest and greatest release isn't going to do anything.The best way to reduce piracy is to release solid, good quality products, support them well, act professionally on these and other forums, and foster good relationships with the community. Make us WANT to support your company. Don't make us guilty until proven innocent, don't treat us like thieves, don't threaten us, and don't throw your toys out of the pram.Nick

[Paladin 101]

What an interesting thread this is. I have purchased the right to use ALL ORBX products, including both SP2 and SP3 DVD's, using pre-pay when it was available, to show my support for their development activities - sometimes not too easy in today's economic climate - and I write as an "old age pensioner". Just a couple of observations:Theft is theft and should, where possible, be dealt with in an appropriate manner - my views on this are too drachonian to post here !When a purchase is made, the purchaser does not "buy the software", you purchase a licence to use the software. If a publisher withdraws the product from the market, then, it could be argued, that the "licence to use" is simultaneously withdrawn.If Mr John Venema [et al] choose to close their site, for whatever reason, have I the right to complain? I suspect not. I can, however, support, or otherwise, whatever their decision might be to "make their point". It has certainly provoked a reaction, both positive and negative - interesting.Maurice.

[Guest cbuchner1]

Just popped over to http://fullterrain.com/ Orbx is closed .

Huh, I just bought their FTX Australia SP3 DVD. The most expensive add-on I ever bought.And two weeks later they close blaming piracy? Not fair to me and all other customers, I'd say.EDIT: Fortunately, it just turned out to be a stunt in order to make a statement.Statement received, now please go on and make some more kick-&@($* flight simulatoradd-ons that I can put into my shopping cart.Christian

[TheDanger 182]

Maybe also if all FS addon developers sold their products on a trial basis similar to Flight 1 so that if you don't like it or find it has loads of bugs etc you can get your money back.There are so many shite and incomplete products being released that I now only purchase from certain developers. Also knowing that I can get a refund if I am not happy helps eg Flight 1.Not saying this will help with the piracy issues but I gather from reading these forums over the last few years that lots of people are sick of wasting money on sub standard addons and not being able to get their money back.I am not condoning piracy but when too many companies are quick to take your money and run you can understand why people want to take their products without paying and run. Its just a shame that when you apply that logic it affects all add on developers good or bad!Orbx do not fall into the bad category either though without a doubt they will suffer for the actions of other companies as well as individuals who would not purchase anything at all ever!Graham

[MatthewS 761]

Well the website/forums are back online... excellent!

[JayKae 1]

Alright, here is our official statement, written by John 'Koorby' Venema, I do have to stress, this was never intended to be a stunt or anything like that, we just got sick and tired of our stuff being stolen and in true Australian form, we decided to do something about it!

First things first - to our dedicated and faithful customers; we apologise for taking away your purchased rights to access the support forums. It was something which I agonised over and you deserve an explanation. For anyone who has had support issues unresolved in the past day, we will bend over backwards to work through them now. Again, please understand the action I took was not to punish you, our much appreciated customers who through your investment in our products allow us to continue to develop more.So why did I close our sites for a day?Contrary to many comments on various sites, we were not throwing a dummy spit or tantrum, nor pulling a clever stunt. That suggestion is offensive to us. We're not into gimmicks for gimmicks' sake.We made a statement, pure and simple.Cessnock and Hervey Bay airports were our most recent releases. They were both made by a large team of people, most of whom get paid for their work. We pay license fees for the aerial imagery. We lease PC equipment, pay rent, pay every single cent of our taxes, bank fees, reseller commissions, other royalties - the list goes on. And I can emphatically say we used licensed, purchased legitimate software and hardware tools to make those products. Hervey Bay was a long and hard project for us to complete, for a bunch of reasons I don't need to elaborate here. We had a slight delay with its launch due to last minute bugs, and we worked long into the night to honour our commitments to our very loyal customers who had such confidence in Orbx they pre-paid for it. So YHBA was a labour of love, and we sweated blood to make it. And it cost Orbx a LOT of money to make.So imagine my utter disgust to be emailed and PM'd by half a dozen people the URL of torrent site location hosting a cracked version of YHBA, only a day or so after release. Imagine my absolute dismay to find the person uploading YCNK, YHBA and other products was actually asking for donations to be given to HIM, so HE could upgrade his PC.Yes, piracy happens. I'm a big enough boy to understand the modern internet-connected world. I've worked in I.T. for 27 years. I don't live under a rock and pretend all human beings are honest and do the right thing. But this was I guess the straw that broke the camel's back. And to those who say they cannot afford to purchase an AU$40 airport I say "**!" - look past your nose at your clothes on your back, your PC in front of your face, the food you or your parents purchase, and all the other tech items you've invested in over the year. Claiming poverty is the most appallingly pathetic excuse I have heard, and I cannot believe it is actually being discussed on FS forums as some sort of justification. To quote young Alex, a 17-yo Orbx customer; "Just for the record you have my support 100% over. Im only 17 earning a small $12 an hour or $16 today (sunday) and even I can manage to pay the small cents Orbx asks." - thanks Alex!Can't afford FS addons? Change hobbies. Enough said.Why does stealing Orbx software not make sense to us?- We price our products at the cheap to mid level of the FS market- We provide (and have proven) the best vendor support in the entire FS industry, bar none- We give away a complete region (Tasmania, as large as Northern Ireland) for FREE. It comes with a payware quality airport. It has no limits. Want us to seed it to a torrent site? Happy to do so if it provides a perception you're getting something for free (which you are.....)- We give away about as much freeware as payware (please, please compare that to other FS vendors)- We founded the team which became OZx. 400 free airfields and now what I believe to be one of the fastest growing FS addon portals in the world.- We patch, hotfix, service pack and continually improve our software. There is not a single product from Orbx which won't get a free update this year, and that includes our freeware- We listen to our customers. We try to learn from our mistakes. We sometimes bristle at your critique but we never stop learning and never claim to to perfect.- We value our customers- We give away lots of prizes, heck, even a AU$10,000 PC!I ask you this question - What does Orbx do to deserve to be stolen from? Why is there a perception that it's ok to steal and share the products we have worked so hard to make?I tell you this fact: We are not making an profit. We have debts to pay. We have 20+ people on various forms of contract and payroll. It costs a lot of money to run this small company.Please don't steal from us.We've made our statement, our silent protest today - and I hope, even in vain, that it has made some impact on the FS community, particularly those on the 'fringe' who we hope and pray might change their habits from today.We offer to you our customers an apology for the outage, and hope no trust has been lost. For those who beg to differ, we'll respect your opinion too.

[giddybert 1]

Once again Geof, do you see my point now. Tom, anybody. Mod me up here.

What difference would you being "modded up" make to the discussion?

[snave 0]

Sound reply, but surely better targeted at the thieves and pirates who never visit your site? Why not go to THEIRS and post your diatribe? We really don't care about the tantrums, whether they be `Australian` or another banal waste of breath. It's getting in the way of business from genuine consumers. If you can't be bothered to deal with the pirate element then that's your problem. If you want sympathy, then forget it: It's a BUSINESS you're in - from the moment you start taking $0.01 from a customer. It's YOUR job to protect your company and its products, not ours. Do your job better then we need not concern ourselves whether you might actually not be around much longer, and can have confidence in making that purchase, knowing that problems will be resolved and support provided. And while I'm sure we'd all take your statement about using legitimate software at face value, there remains the fact that it is not independently verified... Can you provide that verification for every single member of the team? Because I'd be willing to bet that in a team of twenty at least ten will likely have some suspect hardware or software installed. Please don't presume to moralise on the basis of your own sainthood when that could also be a lie, or at best unsubstantiated PR bullshine. Anyway, congrats... For all your posturing and denials it WAS a very effective short-term promotional effort. But where's the `limited time offer` or `special reduction`..? Surely your marketing people gave you the advice that you always follow whining with discounts, to take full commercial advantage of the sympathy dollar? I mean, this has all been done before by other developers, and they always got lots more website traffic from the toy-throwing so it always makes sense to have a Special Offer.We await yours with interest.