..........I assume the decision is taken together with the the captain.

Sorry to quote myself but I did not say that the captain ignores the ATC, I just guessed that the ATC together with the captain would act together instead of issuing orders to the captain. I am not a real pilot but I keep on doubting the ATC orders and the captain follows despiting his idea of safety of a captain almost inside a very risky situation

The key word is coordination. Pilot has to coordinate with ATC. However in extreme situations pilot can initiate immediate action without being cleared by ATC- for example sudden de-pressurization descent. But I would never use the words you used above: Of course to break altitude, ATC clearence is required and so they may make the decision for you. The reading of this can be very misleading.

Not talking about de-pressurization or anything that dangerous. The subject was how to respond to weather. And if you have turbulence, clouds that may have precipitation, and you want to change altitude, you are not going to act alone, Coordinate, of course, because not only is clearence given, it has to be accepted as well, but that is IFR flying 101. You have a situation where the turbulence is severe, or you want to avoid weather, you will ask ATC that you want to change something, and often you will follow their first recomendation. Descend to FL290, reports are the air is smooth down there. Divert to the left because there is inbound traffic to the right. ATC has a far clearer picture of the airspace than you do on the flight deck, and that is why I say they can make the decision for you.

Not talking about de-pressurization or anything that dangerous. The subject was how to respond to weather. And if you have turbulence, clouds that may have precipitation, and you want to change altitude, you are not going to act alone, Coordinate, of course, because not only is clearence given, it has to be accepted as well, but that is IFR flying 101. You have a situation where the turbulence is severe, or you want to avoid weather, you will ask ATC that you want to change something, and often you will follow their first recomendation. Descend to FL290, reports are the air is smooth down there. Divert to the left because there is inbound traffic to the right. ATC has a far clearer picture of the airspace than you do on the flight deck, and that is why I say they can make the decision for you.

I agree with this version, that way. BTW I'm a fsx captain and used to deal with MS ATC.... I am obliged to act alone

and that is why I say they can make the decision for you.

Have you ever flown (as a pilot) in real world? Probably never. Maybe on VATSIM they do stuff like this...In difficult weather scenario real ATC will brief you about weather, answer your questions about feasibility of certain route, may even offer you multiple options, but they will never make a decison for you. They will never even make a suggestion. They may say for example - our radar shows a fairly clear path through xxxx, etc. But ultimately they will ask you what your intentions are. This is also for liability, they don't want later to be sued.

Yes, with MS ATC you have the luxury of ignoring them, and instead of having the FAA waiting for you at the gate, they will just ignore you back. The joys of FSX is having the ability to fly sometimes without ATC.

They will never even make a suggestion.

That is nuts. You are telling me that in all your years of flying, and you report turbulence, or a weather issue, ATC has never come back and suggested a new alitude? Well I have. I was not the PIC, I was just watching along in a jump seat, but that is sure what they did. They reported that a certain altitude, lower than where we were, was being reported as smooth and if we wanted to use that FL as a new cruise altitdue. I consider that a recommendation. If you don't, I don't care. I get sick and tired of posters here that see a little mistake, a misspoken word, or a way of looking or doing things that they do not agree with, and then attack them as either reckless, or a pretender of a pilot. And this board requires you to sign your full name to your posts.

That is nuts.

No nuts. They tell you what other pilots are reporting or doing. Jump seat .. ok, this explains.

Yes, jump seat. I do not have ATP rating, so I am not likely to be found flying jet liners tens of thousands of feet in the air. But if you ever want advice on manners and not acting like a total d-bag, I will help you out with that as well.

Guys chill. We usually just ask for x degrees left or right of track due weather. Why are ATC not surprised by it? Because they can't see the weather, we can, usually visually. So they give us it. Its really no biggie. Europe is always like that. We do loads a day.ATC are accommodating believe it or not, and it's usually possible to deviate off track for weather - we haven't a choice in the matter. Doesn't matter how it's done.

Guys chill.

You are right. I reacted a little too harsh and probably dragged other frustrations into the fold here.

You are right. I reacted a little too harsh and probably dragged other frustrations into the fold here.

no...that guy likes to get on his high horse from time to time.....Yeah someone else said it......the pilot will initially ask or query they controller and the controller will usually oblige. I have only had one instance where they told me to go the other way around a storm and that was for traffic flows on the other side.

For any flight, Vfr included, the PIC has final authority of the flight. The FAA administrator has the right to ask for a report from the pilot, just so anyone doesn't think that pilots can randomly ignore atc and do their own thing......Bruce.

Pilots often have a better idea about the weather than controllers as well, as modern airplanes often have better wx equipment than ATC.

When encountering severe weather (CBs, severe turbulence, etc.) you would initially ask ATC for a clearance to deviate off track. In radar airspace, this will typically be approved as the controller can simply monitor to make sure that you're 5NM from other aircraft at the same level and make sure that you aren't on a collision course with them! However, in non-radar airspace, controllers must apply much larger separation standards - in oceanic areas, aircraft with basic RNAV equipment must be separated by 80NM! In addition, this separation is based entirely on your flight plan because they cannot see where you are. If the controller cannot produce a separation standard, he/she will deny your request for the deviation. The final decision is made by the pilot-in-command. If he/she judges that it is unsafe to continue on the cleared route, then the PIC has the authority to deviate from the ATC clearance to ensure the safety of the flight. It is for this reason, the phraseology used by ATC when denying a weather deviation is: "ABC123, clearance to deviate is unavailable due to traffic [ATC passes information about the restricting traffic, and any possible conflicts should the PIC decide to deviate]. Advise your intentions." You can see that ATC is expecting that the PIC will deviate from the clearance. In addition to this, HF communications are used in oceanic and areas where VHF is not feasible. On HF, pilots are permitted to turn down their radios until they receive a SELCAL (good topic for another discussion). Because most pilots won't be aware that an aircraft is deviating and is no longer being separated from them by ATC, the pilots of a deviating aircraft also make a broadcast call on the inter-pilot frequency (123.450 MHz), which is one of the VHF frequencies that pilots should be monitoring while on HF. This broadcast begins with "PAN PAN" and states the intentions of the pilots and is just a notification to everyone in range that they should pay extra attention to their TCAS and visual scan. Of course, just like after an emergency, the pilots will have to fill out some paperwork.. but this is a better outcome than ending up like AF445! Cheers DZ

When encountering severe weather (CBs, severe turbulence, etc.) you would initially ask ATC for a clearance to deviate off track. In radar airspace, this will typically be approved as the controller can simply monitor to make sure that you're 5NM from other aircraft at the same level and make sure that you aren't on a collision course with them! However, in non-radar airspace, controllers must apply much larger separation standards - in oceanic areas, aircraft with basic RNAV equipment must be separated by 80NM! In addition, this separation is based entirely on your flight plan because they cannot see where you are. If the controller cannot produce a separation standard, he/she will deny your request for the deviation. The final decision is made by the pilot-in-command. If he/she judges that it is unsafe to continue on the cleared route, then the PIC has the authority to deviate from the ATC clearance to ensure the safety of the flight. It is for this reason, the phraseology used by ATC when denying a weather deviation is: "ABC123, clearance to deviate is unavailable due to traffic [ATC passes information about the restricting traffic, and any possible conflicts should the PIC decide to deviate]. Advise your intentions." You can see that ATC is expecting that the PIC will deviate from the clearance. In addition to this, HF communications are used in oceanic and areas where VHF is not feasible. On HF, pilots are permitted to turn down their radios until they receive a SELCAL (good topic for another discussion). Because most pilots won't be aware that an aircraft is deviating and is no longer being separated from them by ATC, the pilots of a deviating aircraft also make a broadcast call on the inter-pilot frequency (123.450 MHz), which is one of the VHF frequencies that pilots should be monitoring while on HF. This broadcast begins with "PAN PAN" and states the intentions of the pilots and is just a notification to everyone in range that they should pay extra attention to their TCAS and visual scan. Of course, just like after an emergency, the pilots will have to fill out some paperwork.. but this is a better outcome than ending up like AF445! Cheers DZ

This explanation drives me to the conclusion you are are a real liner, BTW thanks a lot. Which plane do you fly in the reality ? Your inputs are and always will be much much much appreciated. Please enlighten us more often