x plane 10 handling

[Geofa 108]

That is where xplane 10 (and a little of 9) changed my mind. I have the Carenado F33 for both fsx and xplane 10 and consider it more rw like in xplane-in many areas (exept maybe where lookup tables produce more reliable numbers). Main reason I can't go back to fsx right now...up to recently we have never been able to make an apple to apple compare like this.

[GoranM 3,764]

You need to fly real airplanes to know that answer. X-Plane IS NOT superior..........by any means!Makes you wish you could just put the proper dimensions, engine size, weight and balance into Plane Maker...........and have an ultra-realistic plane pop out...........doesn't it?

Not at all. I love a challenge.

But..........it doesn't seem to work that way. Takes a few months, to a year or more of doing work arounds.....to get the X-Plane model up to spec. In fact, sometimes, it's rather hard to get the X-Plane models to hit specs (numbers wise). That's one of Geof A's complaints.

Comparing flight models and how to make them between sims, is literally like comparing chalk and cheese. They both use very different methods.

And let's take the RV's for example. The X-Plane models pitch up like a Cessna with flap deployment. The real RVs pitch down. When I mentioned that fact, I found it's something the programmer has to enter. Seems the X-Plane program doesn't figure it out, itself.

This is a common "default" setting issue that people have with Planemaker. I was a victim of it myself, once. But it takes literally less than a minute to adjust and have it accurate. No programming required.I never said X Plane accurately figures things out for itself. Rather I said it does a somewhat OK job at "filling in the blanks".

BTW--- I do have several X-Plane addons, that I enjoy. My comments are too imply..............that X-plane is not superior over MSFS. Any way you look at it, both sims require a lot of programming talent. What Austin implies with his ads, I've never agreed with. To me, it's all marketing.L.Adamson

I certainly hope you are not saying FSX's flight model is superior. Flight model superiority is 100% subjective. And it's something many people will never agree on.

[LAdamson 240]

Thank you for completely missing my point. Try reading my post again (there were two paragraphs, not just the one you quoted) because you're about a mile wide of the mark with your condescending retort.

Sorry, you believe it's condescending retort. I read both paragraphs several times." think there is a distinction to be made between the actual in-engine flight model and the aircraft designed to take advantage of that flight model. In that respect, X-Plane really does have the superior flight modeling for the simple reason that it actually has flight modeling. Microsoft uses look-up tables which can do a good job simulating flight, but there's no actual flight modeling going on under the hood."Lookup tables are supplying actual results from known aircraft. Blade element is modeling, what it believes it should be doing..........based on the figures it was given. And it isn't powerful enough to always get it correct. I make my assumptions by comparing real flight to simulated. Therefor, I do not agree that X-Plane has superior flight modeling. I can instantly tell.......when I fly the sim model. That...........is what I attempted to convey.L.Adamson

That is where xplane 10 (and a little of 9) changed my mind. I have the Carenado F33 for both fsx and xplane 10 and consider it more rw like in xplane-in many areas (exept maybe where lookup tables produce more reliable numbers). Main reason I can't go back to fsx right now...up to recently we have never been able to make an apple to apple compare like this.

I don't have the Carenado F33............and haven't yet changed my mind. However, since we've agreed on much in the past, there is always the chance.

[Geofa 108]

Well I am just making the point up to now we have had no way to directly compare the two fm's. Now we for the first time have an aircraft manufactured by the same group on both sims-makes it easy to compare the differences.

[60North 120]

Both sims have the potential to create very accurate flightmodels.XP however has much more detailed and complex aerodynamics model which requiresa lot more from the designer and knowledge about the aircraft one is making. Thus thereare a lot of not very well performing aircraft out there.The new generation payware XP aircraft use flightmodel plugins where we adjust the coreflightmodel and tailor it to match the aircraft we are making.You will be amazed...trust me..

[Tierborn 188]

the FSX/XPX which flight model is better debate is like having a debate on whether the sky is blue or azure ....

[fvapres 7]

I've never heard of simconnect

FYI, simconnect is essentially a MS implementation of FSUIPC for external addons to be able to read information from within the sim itself to drive external programs such as Project Magenta flight deck software, Radar Contact to interact with the player and the AI aircraft and a whole host of programs.

[Geofa 108]

I agreed fully with the fm debate issue being a moot pointin the past-but now that I can fly the Carenado f33in FSX and Xplane 10 and compare, a better compare becomes available-unless one takes the position the manufacturer is doing a better job on one sim vs. the other. I don't see that though-the plane is pretty much identical in physical respects so I would doubt they would skew the fm in one sim vs. the other.

[WarpD 824]

I agreed fully with the fm debate issue being a moot pointin the past-but now that I can fly the Carenado f33in FSX and Xplane 10 and compare, a better compare becomes available-unless one takes the position the manufacturer is doing a better job on one sim vs. the other. I don't see that though-the plane is pretty much identical in physical respects so I would doubt they would skew the fm in one sim vs. the other.

Geof... accuracy of a flight model in FSX is based on accuracy of flight dynamics information as well as knowledge of the individual who built the flight model (and desire to be as accurate as possible). So, I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the differences as being the sim itself. It's my understanding Carenado did not do the FM for X-Plane and I have no idea who did the FM for FSX other than I don't think they were done by the same person(s).

[LAdamson 240]

I agreed fully with the fm debate issue being a moot pointin the past-but now that I can fly the Carenado f33in FSX and Xplane 10 and compare, a better compare becomes available-unless one takes the position the manufacturer is doing a better job on one sim vs. the other. I don't see that though-the plane is pretty much identical in physical respects so I would doubt they would skew the fm in one sim vs. the other.

On the other hand, Carenado hasn't been known as being famous for FSX flight characteristics, and someone else makes the changes required for the X-Plane version. I haven't had any Carenado since a hard drive loss quite a few years back. I'm not up to date with Carenado.edit: Like Ed said. His reply came out, while typing mine.

[Geofa 108]

Geof... accuracy of a flight model in FSX is based on accuracy of flight dynamics information as well as knowledge of the individual who built the flight model (and desire to be as accurate as possible). So, I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the differences as being the sim itself. It's my understanding Carenado did not do the FM for X-Plane and I have no idea who did the FM for FSX other than I don't think they were done by the same person(s).

I am not dismissing either sim-just the continued argument from both sides is that their sim is better but it doesn't always manifest. In the case of the f33-it has manifested better for this end user in xp10. I don't really care if the fm's are based on pi meson particle neutron physics! :-)

On the other hand, Carenado hasn't been known as being famous for FSX flight characteristics, and someone else makes the changes required for the X-Plane version. I haven't had any Carenado since a hard drive loss quite a few years back. I'm not up to date with Carenado.edit: Like Ed said. His reply came out, while typing mine.

Yeah-I've always hear that. Didn't agree when the f33a first came out-I thought it was pretty good though Bernt made it even better. The Baron-yeah I think it could be better. I found a lot of the complaints were people that take the manual then expect the plane to perform exactly like it-as you and I know that is not the case except in a factory new aircraft flown by a test pilot.

[wb5okj 26]

On the other hand, Carenado hasn't been known as being famous for FSX flight characteristics, and someone else makes the changes required for the X-Plane version. I haven't had any Carenado since a hard drive loss quite a few years back. I'm not up to date with Carenado.edit: Like Ed said. His reply came out, while typing mine.

Howdy Larry,You might want to take a look at some of their stuff, I held off from Carenado for a long time because of the tiff that Steve Small had with them over plagiarism. I finally came to think that the whole thing was an accident and not meant to infringe of Small copyright at all. I am quite pleased the Mooney the F33A, and the C152II for XPlane. I still haven't purchased and of their FSX stuff, although i am contemplating the C172, (what I mostly fly in real life).Have you noticed that you Geofa, and myself joined the forums on the same day. Of course I had watched Avsim, for a long time before getting on the forums, as you all probably did too.

[greggerm 312]

Have you noticed that you Geofa, and myself joined the forums on the same day.

March 7, 2002 was a day on which AVSIM had something going on with their forum software. In the process of either fixing something or upgrading something, they needed to reset everyone's user accounts.... on paper, many users were "born" on 3/7/2002, even though we have been registered users for far longer than that.Just a little tidbit - now back to your regular programming...

[Geofa 108]

Interesting on the date-though I predate it much before...I'll name a few things I've noticed on xplane that don't happen in fsx-and they are "feel" items-not number ones.On takeoff-if you don't correct for a xwind-you start to get that nagging from the wing that it wants to pull up and correct deflection will settle it down like rw. Fs in a xwind takeoff always feels like it is sliding down the runway to me on a diagonal. Right rudder correction on takeoff feels spot on. Something like early in my flying I was with an experienced flyer in an unfamilair plane-I asked the takeoff speeds-he said don't worry-you will feel when the plane want to fly. I feel that very strongly in xplane-you know when it wants to fly-it starts hinting-and when you feel that you can gently tug on the nosewheel-hold it in a gentle attitude for a couple seconds with the nosewheel just off and the plane will fly smoothly itself off. Haven't had the same feel in fsx.Then of course there is changing the power settings which some would say is not part of the fm. Most experienced pilots do not need to look at the gauges-they can reduce their setting by sound. Fs has always made the manifold the only engine reduction-prop is nill or barely there-and it is the opposite. Xplane does it better-and I can reduce the manifold and prop to proper setting by listening.The landing phase is the biggest difference for me though. The reaction, feel of the f33 is perfect-and you can come in for instance-flair a little high-feel suddenly the sink rate is a little much, gently lower the nose, aquire the ground effect and make a perfect squeeker. I've never been able to do this on fs-in fact my landings are pretty bad in it most of the time. Add a xwind, and I dunno-just feels perfect in xplane-fs-again get the sliding effect. I did a video here on the perfect landing after an engine out-and boy did it perform/feel like real. You had to drop the nose real fast, and the performance was extremely real (I cheated cause I knew the engine was gonna fail). Also did a video of a pattern with close final here-would not be able to do that in fsx (at least I can't).Interestingly, I have a friend that got his ifr rating and then sluffed off flying. Last year we were on a cruise in the Virgin Islands and we decided we would get an instructor and 172 and go flying-him to get his 3 takeoff's and landings and me also since I was soley twin rated and not current in a single.First landing he came in-flaired way too high-had one of those Cessna spring moments where the gear went up to the window-then started bouncing down the runway till the 4rth bounce when the instructor initiated a go around.He was over here the other day-had him try out xplane. Came in-flared too high, did one of those landings, and the bounces started. Difference was in xplane the gear came off with a prop strike-he didn't go around. Pretty cool!I could go on-but for me the big fm difference is in feel. Want to fly a plane by the book numbers-fs is actually better in a lot of ways. Want to feel what if feels like to fly a plane, including great takeoffs and landings-well I know where I am going for now... :-)

[wb5okj 26]

Interesting on the date-though I predate it much before...I'll name a few things I've noticed on xplane that don't happen in fsx-and they are "feel" items-not number ones.On takeoff-if you don't correct for a xwind-you start to get that nagging from the wing that it wants to pull up and correct deflection will settle it down like rw. Fs in a xwind takeoff always feels like it is sliding down the runway to me on a diagonal. Right rudder correction on takeoff feels spot on. Something like early in my flying I was with an experienced flyer in an unfamilair plane-I asked the takeoff speeds-he said don't worry-you will feel when the plane want to fly. I feel that very strongly in xplane-you know when it wants to fly-it starts hinting-and when you feel that you can gently tug on the nosewheel-hold it in a gentle attitude for a couple seconds with the nosewheel just off and the plane will fly smoothly itself off. Haven't had the same feel in fsx.Then of course there is changing the power settings which some would say is not part of the fm. Most experienced pilots do not need to look at the gauges-they can reduce their setting by sound. Fs has always made the manifold the only engine reduction-prop is nill or barely there-and it is the opposite. Xplane does it better-and I can reduce the manifold and prop to proper setting by listening.The landing phase is the biggest difference for me though. The reaction, feel of the f33 is perfect-and you can come in for instance-flair a little high-feel suddenly the sink rate is a little much, gently lower the nose, aquire the ground effect and make a perfect squeeker. I've never been able to do this on fs-in fact my landings are pretty bad in it most of the time. Add a xwind, and I dunno-just feels perfect in xplane-fs-again get the sliding effect. I did a video here on the perfect landing after an engine out-and boy did it perform/feel like real. You had to drop the nose real fast, and the performance was extremely real (I cheated cause I knew the engine was gonna fail). Also did a video of a pattern with close final here-would not be able to do that in fsx (at least I can't).Interestingly, I have a friend that got his ifr rating and then sluffed of flying. Last year we were on a cruise in the Virgin Islands and we decided we would get an instructor and 172 and go flying-him to get his 3 takeoff's and landings and me also since I was soley twin rated and not current in a single.First landing he came in-flaired way too high-had one of those Cessna spring moments where the gear went up to the window-then started bouncing down the runway till the 4rth bounce when the instructor initiated a go around.He was over here the other day-had him try out xplane. Came in-flared too high, did one of those landings, and the bounces started. Difference was in xplane the gear came off with a prop strike-he didn't go around. Pretty cool!I could go on-but for me the big fm difference is in feel. Want to fly a plane by the book numbers-fs is actually better in a lot of ways. Want to feel what if feels like to fly a plane, including great takeoffs and landings-well I know where I am going for now... :-)

Great post Geof.For me its not one sim or another I do both. Remember back in the Mid 90's we were doing MSFS, Pro Pilot, ( I won a real life dead reckoning contest out of Grand Prairie TX. by flying the course in Pro Pilot), Fly, Flight Unlimited, none of these were a favorite, I loved them all. Naval Aviators from electronic Arts, in 1993 or 4 was my favorite combat simulators. The only thing I did in that sim was practice carrier landings in the Tomcat. I accidentally killed the LSO by firing a sidewinder on the catapult. Felt guilty for days The point, it seems to me shouldn't be which or even if one sim is better than another, have fun with all of them.