True, Ariane is worse - but that's still no excuse for meaningless legal mumb-jumbo.

I don't think it's so meaningless. Contrary to boxed products which, upon return will most of the time not work anymore or won't be reinstallable, downloaded products can still be used. They want to make sure that if you download their product, you also pay for it. If it doesn't work and you issue a refund but in the meantime keep happily using the software, than that's exactly what they are trying to prevent.I agree that it's not the most trustworthy attitude I have come across. Compare it to Flight1, which puts great trust into consumers when issuing refunds. They too can't be sure that the customer doesn't secretly keep using the software, but they trust him anyway. BBS might be doing this because of piracy concerns, to which they reportedly succumbed when they were PSS. Form that point of view, I can understand BBS's approach, even though I'm not to fond of it.

I understand the point, but a policy of NO REFUNDS isn't legally valid.If any purchase is faulty the buyer is entitled to a refund, whatever the T&Cs may say.

I've checked the UK law quickly, largely because that's where I live and it's easily accessible, and also because it will possibly be similar to other EU countries' laws.Pertaining to online purchases the law, in brief, states:

...you can get a refund if items aren’t delivered on the agreed delivery date...

It states nowhere else from what I can see that an online purchase requires a refund period, and the only reason a refund date may be issued would be if the above conditions are met.It also states that you don't have the right to cancel an order within the 7 day cooling off period:

...when a new service starts immediately (eg paying for access to a website)...

Depending on interpretation, that could perhaps also include a download.I haven't checked the actual wording of the law, and I realise the BBS is based in Malta where the law may likely be entirely different but these terms and conditions, in the UK at least, appear to be valid. I'm no lawyer, I'm just trying to point out that it may be legal to use such terms and conditions, at least in some jurisdictions.Source: http://www.direct.go...ights/DG_183048

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by Puffmac

Your link deals with the additional rights for purchases over the internet. It also states:

The usual rules that apply to shopping on the high street also apply to distance selling. So items must be:• as described• of satisfactory quality• fit for purpose

If they are not, you have a right to a refund. It's commonsense - you don't have to pay for faulty goods.Malta is in the EU so its consumer protection laws are harmonised with the rest of the EU. Anyway, as you (like me) are in the UK, UK law applies.

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by mgh

Don't know how this works in the UK, but in Germany you can't demand a refund right away when a product is faulty. You must give the vendor a chance to have it fixed first. When that's not possible, you are eligible for a refund.Anyway, this all sounds like a very theoretic discussion to me. Have you tried to obtain a refund from BSS for anything?

I understand the point, but a policy of NO REFUNDS isn't legally valid.If any purchase is faulty the buyer is entitled to a refund, whatever the T&Cs may say.

Sure its valid. I sell items on Ebay and very often times state NO REFUND. As long as the buyer is aware of the policy before purchasing and agree to purchase, its completely copasetic.

In UK a customer has the right to reject goods and claim a full refund. The customer can agree to acceps a replacement or repair but doesn't have to.As you say this is academic but I respect devepers rights - all the software on my computer is either bought and paid for or freeware. I don't pirate.I expect developers to respect my rights and not to attempt to take them away by misleading terms in T&Cs I also don't expect them to make bullying and unforceable threats about prosecting customers for fraud if they assert their rights by seeking a chargeback.

Sure, just let them write into their T&C whatever they want. They might still be valid in other countries where consumers have less rights.Regarding the chargebacks: I'm pretty sure you can't force the refund that that way. That's like grabbing in the cash register.

Sure its valid. I sell items on Ebay and very often times state NO REFUND. As long as the buyer is aware of the policy before purchasing and agree to purchase, its completely copasetic.

Are selling as a private person or as a business?

The T&Cs as written are unenforceable throughout Europe yet they state they are "subject to European laws" - which itself is a nonsense. There is no such thing as "European Laws".As I said before, requesting a chargeback a buyers right and is not fraud,The T&Cs contain the sort of bluff and bluster that's shown, for example, on the Ariane site. Microsoft, can afford proper lawyers who know what they are talking abou and.it includes phrases such as "only to the extent that applicable law expressly permits" in its EULAs.My point remains that if Blackbox expects us to respect their rights it should respect ours.As far as Ebay is concerned. I think we all know that they are many sellers who take good money for rubbish and then try to hide behind a no refund clause - I know because I've been ripped off there.

MHG ... You have been locked out of Flightsim.com Forum for the same thread content .. (That alone should have told you something ?) NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR RANTINGS!!! You seem to be on a mission to throw your self appointed accusing finger at BlackBox for whatever reason, whatever we say or do, and its about time it stopped. There is NOTHING Wrong with our Terms and Conditions, or our policies,Its quite simple (but let me explain Just for you!)If you, or anyone else attempt to defraud Blackbox ( or Microsoft, ebay, etc etc etc etc etc etc ) You will be prosecuted, End of argument.There is Nothing special or untoward about our terms and conditions,there is nothing EVIL about Blackbox,there is no Ulterior motive behind our companyOTHER THAN TO BE ALLOWED TO MAKE A LIVING WITHOUT BEING FLAMED AND ATTACKED PERSONALLY BY YOU IN EVERY FORUM!you already made it VERY clear you have no desire to be a customer of BlackBox, so why would this concern you anyway? Why not tell us all your reasons for this personal vendetta against our Company so that we may attempt to resolve themNow MGH... PLEASE stop this Harassment or Publicly give a valid reason why you feel it necessary to persist in your attacksGraham WaterfieldCEOBLACKBOX SIMULATION

HelloThe easy answer is not to buy anything off them in the first place, I won't be after being left with over £100 of software that I could not register after the last PSS fiasco.Once bitten ect.

If you, or anyone else attempt to defraud Blackbox ( or Microsoft, ebay, etc etc etc etc etc etc ) You will be prosecuted, End of argument.

That is not what your T&Cs state

Chargebacks to credit cards or stop payments on checks as a means to "return" software will be construed as fraud and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Asking for a chargeback or stopping a cheque is not fraud. You can construe what you like but that doesn't affect the law or consumer's rights. Consumers have a right to a refund if the product is faulty. Your statement that "In no case will refunds be given for software delivered online ("Electronic Delivery")" is clearly void under EU consumer law. See, for example, Schedule 2 1( B) of the UK The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, which implements the EU Directive.

Sure, just let them write into their T&C whatever they want. They might still be valid in other countries where consumers have less rights.Regarding the chargebacks: I'm pretty sure you can't force the refund that that way. That's like grabbing in the cash register.Are selling as a private person or as a business?

Both/

I was a long time customer of PSS, I purchased just about every product they released for FS2000/2002/2004.After the let down of the A330/A340...After being a pre-order customer for the 777 and receiving totally sub-standard product...After pre-ordering the 757 when PSS promised they learned the lesson of the 777 release and wouldn't make the same mistakes again - only to stage yet another shambolic fiasco of a release...After PSS closing shop and leaving all their customers with the "online installers" high and dry...I will not be buying anything from Black Box. I wish the best of luck to anyone who does, but I'm not holding my breath.