I honestly do not see MSGS opening up that particular can of worms. The only way I can see TIR working will be if and when MSGS decide to release both an SDK and an API allowing third party companies to connect with Flight themselves

That may be Bill, and you certainly would know a heck of a lot better than I, and if it is that will be sad for all the Track IR users. However I will say as I have said many times before - this is the first flight sim to come out in a long time, that did not include support for that peripheral. Flight supports other peripherals as regards to controllers. Even recognized my Cougar by name, along with many others as well I am sure.I currently have 6 flight sims installed on my pc. The other 5 have native Track IR support. Heck even many racing sims have it now. And these other 5 flight sims I have installed, are much smaller companies than the MSFS franchise and the resources available to them. Perhaps it is a much bigger deal for them to do than I envision, but if these smaller guys can do it , I have a hard time believing it would be that big a deal for MS to do it either.But it will be what it will be, and I will live with it or choose to move all my simming to some of the other 5. All I can do is express my opinion and hopes, and I do hope they implement it at some point for all the many Track IR users there are that currently can not use their peripheral with Flight. I do know there are many, that are not even trying Flight out, due to this.I really enjoy Flight, have had many hours of enjoyment out of it so far, but wow it would be so much better with Track IR - especially with that beautiful scenery.Thanks for the info,

That goes both ways, Josh Howard's only slightly veiled swipes at hardcore simmers in the interview and some posters here stereotyping "hardcore simmers" create bitterness even for simmers who like Flight and are hopeful for it.Thankfully 95% of the dialogue here from both sides of AVSIM users is good and productive, and it's good to see new users as well, so we just have to keep the dialogue decent and keep in mind we are all part of the same community.

True, but I might have been hard-pressed not to take those swipes as well. There is kind of a selective amnesia happening, as some of the things said (still being said out on the web) were/are completely unforgivable. If you can point me at similar statements in similar language and ferocity or anything even close from Microsoft's side, then I will concede the point instantly and with all the good grace I can muster.I would have been steaming like a coffeepot. The man showed admirable corporate restraint while sending a message that the current behavior was beyond the pale and utterly unproductive.And the only reason it is now polite here is that the mods patrolled the corridors with laser pistols for a few weeks. Heck, in the beta forum, I am seeing comments that would have even fairly easygoing me booting people so hard they bounced twice. Yet the forum mod(s) are scrupulously polite, even when people are just cruising for a bruising. They are not the ones showing their rear ends.

I was just thinking sitting here, I have to wonder what the sentiment here would be like today, had two things not have happened in the last couple of weeks:1: The JH Interview.2: The release of the exterior only Zero.Think about it.Now, regarding number 1: While there were some things I kind of liked, and some things I kind of did not, it is really hard to read anything concrete in that interview. And that is the way it was intended undoubtedly. So as painful as it is, let's try to take that off the table for a moment.Regarding number 2: It is not like, they released Flight on 2-28, saw sales skyrocket on the P51 and decide - ok, we are changing strategy to appeal to gamers only, let's do a Zero- exterior only. No, as some have already stated that would know, it takes months to produce such an aircraft. This puppy was in the bag so to speak, on release day. It was already planned to offer on the 1 month anniversary of release. A bone to throw. Nothing changed, in Flight's direction , during that time. At least nothing that would be apparent as of yet.So fornow, let's take that one off the table.Now these two " occurences" , are now off the table. Do we still feel the same today, regarding Flight's direction as we did initially, say on March 1st? Or March 8th? Or has it changed? Is there a reason it should change?It would seem to me, if at some point Flight had changed it's direction, that would have had to reflect in a change prior to Feb 28th. While we may not have got as much as we would have liked, we did get - virtual cockpits - working checklists - working radios - working vor's - some working instruments - manual mixture and prop rpm controls - ability to uncheck aides for realism - support for many types of controllers - etc.So then I have to ask myself, is MS and the Flight Team, truly starting to focus more on the gamer? Keep in mind, I have taken the interview and the Zero off the able when I ask myself that question. I can only answer at this point, I do not know. I have to think the above " simmer" type of things were put into flight, for a reason. Now somewhere in say 6 months to 1 year, I will be better able to answer my own question for myself.But for now, for today, based on what little I know I shall remain hopefull. Yes even with my extreme dissappointment with lack of Track IR support, I shall remain hopefull. But that is just me and what I choose to do based on what I do know at this point.

A "war" plane used for regular, non-combat flying--even if it still has the markings on it--is just another plane.

True, but I might have been hard-pressed not to take those swipes as well. There is kind of a selective amnesia happening, as some of the things said (still being said out on the web) were/are completely unforgivable. If you can point me at similar statements in similar language and ferocity or anything even close from Microsoft's side, then I will concede the point instantly and with all the good grace I can muster.I would have been steaming like a coffeepot. The man showed admirable corporate restraint while sending a message that the current behavior was beyond the pale and utterly unproductive.And the only reason it is now polite here is that the mods patrolled the corridors with laser pistols for a few weeks. Heck, in the beta forum, I am seeing comments that would have even fairly easygoing me booting people so hard they bounced twice. Yet the forum mod(s) are scrupulously polite, even when people are just cruising for a bruising. They are not the ones showing their rear ends.

I agree, there was despicable behavior from both sides, I don't really want to go pull examples, but I agree it was embarrassing and unproductive and thankfully the moderators stepped in to restore an environment where even if we disagree we can discuss differences of opinion on Flight in a civil way, I'm thankful for that as I'm on a few other forums where neutral Flight discussion is not as easy.Hopefully though, we (and Josh Howard included) can take a step back from the defense or disappointment discussions of the past and avoid the natural tendency to let the loud extremists and trolls stand as our example to stereotype and dismiss whole segments of the customer base, doing so is also unproductive will keep Flight from being as good we all hope it can be (we may disagree on how).Personally at this point I'm not holding resentments, I think the Flight team is minimally affected by our feedback or fighting anyhow, as they are busy delivering their existing vision, hopefully even if we disagree we can all still discuss things that get released or enhanced in a productive and enjoyable manner so that at some point in the future, the input to them and their reception is not so divided.

(I don't even feel like the demographic shift is the main goal of Flight anyhow- I feel like this change is more about controlling the addon market and everything else is residual to that goal, or purely semantic. MS knew the current simmers would never allow the the free addon market to disappear without a fight, so MS needed to find a new demographic anyhow- one that MS is HOPING will be larger than the legacy demographic.

The shift to making a mass appeal game is because MS want a lot of cash and they see the flight sim community as stagnant if not shrinking so releasing another FSX to them would of been a waste. Course MS want a peice of the dlc pie (do 3rd party devs have to give MS any cash?) and 3rd party devs can still produce stuff for the flight sims.

I hope the MS Flight Staff will recognize this "Zero-affair" like a "youth" error to be corrected in the future.The Flight software platform has got very good potentialities, please don't spoil it with such mediocre addons ... It' s a real pity, you can make much better things!It is better to have people waiting for weeks or months than release mediocre or incomplete addons, which inevitably will cause delusion in most customers, making them "fly away" from your product and ruining your brand's reputation ...No more planes with no cockpit for a PC game in 2012 ... please ... To release nothing until Alaska would have been a better choice!

We have been informed in the beta forum that every aircraft is vetted by a "geopolitical risk assesment" whatever that means...

LMAO wonder if they outsource. http://en.wikipedia..../Political_risk

To me, it would be like releasing an HE-111 for flying over England.

If it had a full working interior (screw having just a vc for that sort of thing) I would would buy it.

It is better to have people waiting for weeks or months than release mediocre or incomplete addons, which inevitably will cause delusion in most customers, making them "fly away" from your product and ruining your brand's reputation ...

Double edged, they don't release stuff people get bored if they do some people will complain. Would be nice if they could start pusing out some patches, but then I don't think the things we want (damage etc) are going to be getting made by the people making these planes.

The shift to making a mass appeal game is because MS want a lot of cash and they see the flight sim community as stagnant if not shrinking so releasing another FSX to them would of been a waste. Course MS want a peice of the dlc pie (do 3rd party devs have to give MS any cash?) and 3rd party devs can still produce stuff for the flight sims.

Exactly what I was saying- MS shouldn't shouldn't have had their feelings hurt when simmers hated Flight, since it was never created for the simmers. They only cater to the gamer's needs (leaderboards?), and anything other than "wow, it looks great!" from the simmers was unwanted. The vulgar negativity from the simmers only helped fuel their distaste for the simmers, not created it.Seems to me that one money grab solution would be to cater to both the casual gamers that will spend $20 on Flight before they leave for the next newest thing, and also the simmers that will spend hundreds of dollars a year for many years into the future.It is way too late for MS to shut the door on the free market for FS, so Flight is really them shutting the door on the future. I doubt 3pd had to pay royalties for FS addons, as I've never seen that mentioned. This is where MS has a chip on their shoulder, and it's not the bad attitudes of the few simmers that are left.

I was just thinking sitting here, I have to wonder what the sentiment here would be like today, had two things not have happened in the last couple of weeks:1: The JH Interview.2: The release of the exterior only Zero.Think about it.

TBH, even with the two elements you've listed above. my sentiment is no different than it was. Neither of the two items affect my desire to see and discover the Alaska DLC. Why should they?With respects to the Zero, what if it had been a 737 *with* a cockpit? I don't fly big planes, VC or no VC. So my feeling would have been just the same as it is with the release of the Zero, "not this month, maybe next?".It's great that people have expectations about Flight, but they need to be tempered with reason and logic. Flight has been out for ONE month and we are already seeing the proclamations of Flight's demise. Both here and in the beta forum. I just find it so difficult to follow the thought process of the glass half-empty, doom and gloom portion of the community. Had there been a 737 released instead of the Zero we would be reading about how it doesn't carry four letters in it's name or how the FMC doesn't do Vnav properly or who knows what else people might find to complain about. Because that's the way of the world nowadays. Don't be happy with what you have, complain about what's missing and paint yourself as some type of victim.Me? I never want to assume the position of being a victim. Instead I will wait for next month's release and see if it's Alaska or a plane I might want to fly. I might be a little disappointed if I have to wait for another month after that, but it will pass rather quickly. I've got Flight and planes I can and do want to fly. I got it for free and that's why I m happy for what I have and not worrying about what I don't have.

Its a bit ironic that a civil aviation flight game is causing more anger than many air combat games.MS Flight is a big ship and when they release things and get sales / feedback it will take some time for them to turn to the optimal heading. Just like there was a new basic plane there probably will be coin collection missions in Alaska too, like others have said it takes way more than a month to make content in response to sales and feedback. I think both gamers and simmers would like a living world, but if it wasnt planned for it will take months. ( If the initial heading was wrong lets just hope MS Flight can turn faster than Titanic.) But Im still an optimist :)If you cant handle the slow release of sparse content and cant decide if you should invest in MS Flight ...save yourself the frustration and come back in one year ... then you'll know :)-

If you cant handle the slow release of sparse content and cant decide if you should invest in MS Flight ...save yourself the frustration and come back in one year ... then you'll know :)

wise words. I wish I could follow them but know at the same time I won't. My bad. Neither MS's nor JH's. So I raised my concern, sent in my wish list and will now remain calm and enjoy what I have. Yes you are right. I want to much at the same time. And I see that they cannot please all at the same time with the way they chose. There are obviously people who enjoy the mustang or the zero. I am not the judge to tell MS what is right or wrong. So I will give them a rest now and try to wait patiently.

Its been pointed out that ROF makes DLC including both cockpits and damage models for less than Microsoft DLC planes. Of course, the cockpits in FLIGHT are more complex, but the market is larger and the price is higher.........An interesting difference in vision.

MS Flight is a big ship...

Big ship?At present it more resembles the Kon-Tiki, and indeed it is limited to a small part of the Pacific Ocean A.

Big ship?At present it more resembles the Kon-Tiki, and indeed it is limited to a small part of the Pacific Ocean

I think it is starting to resemble the Titanic at the moment, if the reaction on this thread is any guide. Still one thing can be said about that reaction, it did garner this gem, quoted below, which may possibly be my favourite Avsim forum comment ever...

Of course, the True Hard-Core Maxtreme Simmers ™ only ever fly between Schipol & Frankfurt in cargo B737s, at night, in cloud, so I guess all you ever need is the cockpit and an autopilot on/off switch. :Big Grin:

Al