This accident happened in Brazil this week, it's a Beech King Air C-90 from what I know, the aircraft had an engine problem as was flying back to the airport single engine.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otxYSExbg3Q

 

It all happens too fast, the aircraft is under control, almost making it back to the runway, then the nose is slightly pitched up, and bang, the aircraft break into a roll out of control.

 

I could get the best FS addon, stay all day long at Stall speed, and a lost of control like that would never happen. Maybe X-Plane can bite you like that? But it sure makes me be very careful not to think of FS as a Flight simulator, it can be a navigation simulator, an aircraft system simulation, but I believe it is too forgiving with making mistakes that could cost your life in real life, that's something I like about X-Plane, it's not easy, you often loose control, but that's the way a simulator has to be in my opinion.

 

What do you guys think? About the accident, what could make a plane do something like that? Maybe he was under the Blue Line speed?

That is so unexplainable to me. How was he so stable on the approach and the all of the sudden he flips the aircraft around. Or the aircraft flips itself... Even if on one engine. Either steering went completely bad - it's mechanical, right? So, something broke and made the aircraft flip? Like, full right bank? Or the pilot panicked - which I find unlikely, but possible.

 

I'll move this topic into Hangar Chat, as it has nothing to do with FSX.

VMCA.

 

Just like this one:

#####! How is that happening? So basically one side apparently loses lift... but why?

This is what happens when you reach Vmc. It is not dictated by one airspeed and there are many different factors contributing to it. Find more in the Airplane Flying Handbook in the multi-engine section http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/

There are many dangers in flying an aircraft if you don't watch what you are doing, and I can see two things going on in both examples which were the cause of the crashes.

 

First, twins become very picky about turning when one engine is out; it is of course easier to turn toward the dead engine instead of the live one, because the asymmetric thrust will assist the turn, but doing that can assist it so much that it can make the wing on the inside of the turn stall when at Vmc, and that will cause an autorotation as the other wing keeps flying. Twin pilots are taught this kind of thing, since an engine can of course fail; the solution is to try to keep plenty of speed on, with a dive if necessary, and be very careful about which way you turn when an engine is out.

 

Second, and this applies to all aeroplanes, regardless of how many engines they have. One should absolutely never, ever, do what that pilot was doing on the final turn, which is to keep the turn flat, at low speed, and then try to nudge it round with the rudder in an attempt to line up - that is absolutely asking for a spin at an unrecoverable height. It is far safer to do a banked turn so long as you have the necessary speed to achieve it (bearing in mind that this too will increase the stall speed), since the elevator and wings will be what is altering the vector, although at low altitude, you have to also be aware that very steep turns can put the high and low wings into different wind gradients. If you can't line it up on that field, you are better off trying it again, or keeping it straight and bellying it into a field if you can't maintain altitude. Nobody wants to do that of course, but it is better than spinning it in from 150 AGL, as there is very little chance you will survive such an occurrence.

 

It was especially foolhardy in that kind of terrain, where there there may also be a reduction in airspeed for a couple of reasons - first, the wind gradient as you descend, and second, the cooler air coming off the tree lines, which will cause a sink, tempting one to lift the nose - both of these are the reasons why steep, fast approaches are favoured into hilly airfields.

 

There is no need to be scared of 'being an FS pilot too long', since you can adhere to good habits even if your sim does not simulate spins - after all, you are not trying to make it spin, you are trying to foster a habit which avoids the possibility of a spin - and if you do that, the skill you make into good practice will transfer to the real world on the day that you really need it too. This is why airline pilots get checkrides in simulators. The old fighter pilot adage: 'speed is life' may not refer to turning onto finals, but we can keep it in mind when doing so. If you remember never to try 'stretching a glide', and never try to 'nudge an aircraft around with the rudder' when at low speeds, then there will be no need to be concerned about flying either a simulated, or a real aircraft. None of this stuff is mysterious knowledge which can only be gained by flying 10,000 hours, it is all in the text books and there for the taking, and as they say - knowledge is power.

 

 

 

Al

The first one I can see it looks like Pilot error. Why was he in such a hurry to land when he had one good engine? He could have aligned himself much better and come it for a straight in approach. It seems silly to do steep turn maneuver so low to the ground to land with single engine. I wouldn't try to do that with two engines (what if one engine quits at just that time).

 

It looks like the Pilot panicked with that engine quitting.. he was trying to land like the aircraft was on fire or something. Totally unnecessary it looks like. These aircrafts would fly just fine with single engine... it just won't go much higher is all. The speed at which he was diving in would have failed a multi engine, engine out procedure check ride.

 

Manny

 

Yeah..wish FSX Twins were modeled much better so they tend to roll over when less than Vmc and an engine quitting.

That was a nice explanation from all you folks. I'll be returning to doing real flying this next week. I can already imagine me going crazy with the different responses I will get from the airplane opposed to what I have been used to in FS for these past 4 years I spent without real flying. It's sure going to be a loooot of fun.

I'd rather hit the trees with the aircraft under control than hit them spinning upside down... trading airspeed for more distance is a no-no with an engine out.

 

As for the first video, that was far from a stabilized approach. It would also seem that was a high altitude airport, given the clues in the video. (High speed, no performance for the single engine King Air, etc.)

 

Interesting videos, as both of those aircraft that crashed aren't slouches single engine. The Baron pilot should have been able to make it. Chilling stuff.

I could get the best FS addon, stay all day long at Stall speed, and a lost of control like that would never happen. Maybe X-Plane can bite you like that? But it sure makes me be very careful not to think of FS as a Flight simulator, it can be a navigation simulator, an aircraft system simulation, but I believe it is too forgiving with making mistakes that could cost your life in real life, that's something I like about X-Plane, it's not easy, you often loose control, but that's the way a simulator has to be in my opinion.

 

What do you guys think? About the accident, what could make a plane do something like that? Maybe he was under the Blue Line speed?

 

Aside from what caused this accident, I wouldn't count on X-Plane as being the sim that will (realistically) bite...............while FS flies all day long at stall speed. Sometimes, X-Plane isn't easy, because it may be "wrong". On the otherhand, there are models for each, that go to different lengths of simulating stalls.

 

L.Adamson

I have only seen something like this in FS once and that was with the Turbine Duke. I can't remember exactly what I was doing wrong, but I know it was one of my first two or three flights. I was approaching a mountain airport (7000+ altitude) and I think I was simply just not paying attention to my airspeed, but regardless, the plane started to buffet, then within a very short period of time the right wing stalled and the plane instantly flipped maybe 140 degrees to the right and was in the ground within 2 seconds. I was utterly blown away by it because, for one, I had screwed up, which no one wants to do, even in a sim. But secondly, the plane behaved EXACTLY like I was taught it would in such a situation. It really is chilling to see how fast it can happen, when all "appears" fine.

 

Every other FS plane I have seen "stall" like that always just stay nose high and fall level into the ground.

It looks in the original video if he clipped a tree!

vololiberista

Aside from what caused this accident, I wouldn't count on X-Plane as being the sim that will (realistically) bite...............while FS flies all day long at stall speed. Sometimes, X-Plane isn't easy, because it may be "wrong". On the otherhand, there are models for each, that go to different lengths of simulating stalls.

 

L.Adamson

 

I'm not up to date on the latest add-ons for MSFS and X-Plane, but one thing I remember clearly is I only experienced what seemed to be a palusible loss of control with OEI below VMCA on some X-Plane aircrafts. Nothing came close on any MSFS twin I tried. But as I said I'm not up to date, so maybe there are add-on twins for MSFS that exhibit plausible loss of control below VMCA.

 

Marco

 

EDIT: Just read the NoahBryant post, so it seems the Turbine Duke exhibits plausible behaviour, I don't have it though.

EDIT: Just read the NoahBryant post, so it seems the Turbine Duke exhibits plausible behaviour, I don't have it though.

 

I usually refer to "RealAir" simulated aircraft............when someone says that FS aircraft....can't, as in the original post.

I have only seen something like this in FS once and that was with the Turbine Duke.

 

I can sure verify this - the Turbine Duke will do this type of thing very easily. I made this mistake twice before replays showed me I was too fixated on where I was going and not "how fast" and "how low" - the Duke stalled, flipped over on its back and fell out of the sky in exactly the same manner. Even when it's just a sim you stop and think about how fast you screwed up and what it would have cost you...