I was just at an fsx related website this morning: A vendor known for their many super-high quality products for fsx, and I was looking for something to catch my eye. Then I bumped into a scenario that has troubled me before and is still quite a mess in the fsx community: Installation and updates.

 

Did I have the latest patch? Where could I check? Was my version of the software up to date? If so, did I need this patch?

 

If I buy new software product, are all the patches already included, or should I return to the site to download? Also, some software versions require one patch, and later iterations require a completely different one. If you are you running version XXXXX you need patch XXXXX, or if you have version XXX1c then there is another patch.

 

Oppps! fsx has crashed! did I do something in the wrong order? Wrong patch? If I try to delete and start over was there something overwritten that will completely destroy my fsx installation? Do I need a doctorates degree?

 

I had completely forgotten about these little fsx niggles that I had grown accustomed to patiently navigating through. Like constant CFG-tweaking, it had become just a necessary background noise, though in the Aerosoft forum, when they were discussing the possibility of them releasing a sim of their own, one of my suggestions was auto-updates and an in-game store: but then I forgot all about it.

 

Now, as in many other things, flight has spoiled me. Want a plane? Clickety click.... done. Want the latest update/patch? Clickety click, load and fly. I didn't realize how spoiled I had become (and how quickly) until I went to that fsx site this morning, read about the latest patches (and tertiary support downloads) and............

 

And I wandered off without buying anything. It just seemed too hard all of the sudden, and it occurs to me that to a newbie, it must seem like negotiating a nightmare. Its one of the things I think Flight got very very right, and I hope any new and/or upcoming sims take heed.

 

Its another game changer.

 

Random experience of the day. :Monkey:

Since Flight has gotten me interested in flight sims again, I've thought a few times about taking a fresh look at FSX or trying Prepar3D. Each time that happens, I'll start doing research on the various 3PD assets to best enhance the experience, have to start taking notes on exactly how to get everything cooperating and optimized, keep reading about how much trouble people are having getting everything to work right, say to myself "this is just more trouble than it's worth" and start Flight.

 

Should 3PD assets become available for Flight, I expect MS will still be the only distributor, drastically simplifying the process for the end-user. There may be other store-fronts, like Steam, so prices and bundles may vary, and even "exclusive" DLC may be available to just one store, but MS will be the one actually providing the product in a single integrated and "compatibility-guaranteed" delivery system. That's a valuable process (to me) and I don't mind a bit if that means MS gets a cut of every 3PD DLC sale.

Loooooooooong before Flight was released I already posted how excited I was with the prospect of not having to manually update everything. I don't have to look for my addons anymore and all their:

 

- serials

- licenses

- keys

- passwords

- usernames

- emailadresses used during purchase

- keyfiles

- creditcardnumbers

- last four digits of creditcardsnumbers

- ordernumbers

- orderdates

- validationcodes

- et cetera.

 

And when you found all that you get:

 

- maximum allowed number of reinstalls

- where to aks for more possible reinstalls

- companies that went out of business in the meantime

- lost installers

- lost updates

- lost links to installers

- lost links to updates

- how addons influence each other

- order of installing

- turning features on or off before or after installing

- turning features on or off before or after installing addons that might be influenced

- config tools

- setup tools

- centrals

- configurators

- edit scenery library

- generate database

- et cetera

 

And when you've had all that... you've got to tweak it all...

 

I LOVE FLIGHT! The whole system of DLC and automatic updates is simply wonderful.

Oh, and another thing I like about Flight and DLC: it seems that you don't have to install DLC at all! I once had to reinstall Flight and copied my DLC folder to an SSD (because Flight seems to use the DLC right from the DLC folder). After starting up Flight the DLC was available for use immediately. Don't know if this works on a new PC too, but I liked it nonetheless.

Myself I have really never had major problems with making addons to work, patches etc. Usually vendors have made everything pretty clear other than few exceptions, and I do actually like to mess around with addons sometimes, like by buying FS9 addons and then trying to make them work with FSX.

 

FSX tweaking has been bit of a problem though, but I have got it working all right for my needs, even though I have highest end system I havent topped everything as that seems to cause unstability.

 

All that tweaking needed for FSX is not caused by its business model or anything, but just its code being kind of bad and bugs not fixed. FSX would have needed SP3.

 

Anyway although certain things with Flight DLCs are easier than with 3rd party addons, still Flight lost huge amount of potential by not allowing third party addons. No dev team for not so high budget game can ever match addon community of FS.

 

But this is just my opinion about pros and cons of leaving third party out. I do anyway wish all the best to Flight just like I do to all flight simulators and flight games out there. More is better as Flight does not stop anyone from using FS or other way around.

Ugh.. I spend more time file managing fsx than i do flying it. however, the base install of FSX with zero tweaks still far surpasses the depth of Flight, and likely will for at least another year or two, maybe forever if you count just land mass and airports. What i mean is that inconvenience of file management is of our own doing, our own greed at the possibility of virtually unlimited potential. A lot of that potential is virtually non existant in Flight.

 

Will freeware ever be released? likely never. For example, I dont want to fly with the HUD, but I still want to see my throttle percentage. Will i ever get to download this app from a helpful user that has donated his time and talents? probably not.

 

I see your points but have to say that I would be stunned if there was anyone out there running a plain vanilla version of fsx. Very soon after entering this hobby many people discover that even the simplest ad-dons quickly begin to lead in the direction of incompatibility with other products. The fact is, that there is no "central clearing house" for fsx additions, and the very strength of the 3pd market can sometimes become a weakness in that situation when certain "must have" additions prove incompatible with one another.

 

I started a thread at another forum once about this situation from the eyes of a returning newcomer, and suggested vendors might test their products against other highly popular products to make sure they worked together. (as a tertiary issue I suggested a patch/update forum) Sure enough, I was assured in multiple posts of this rather long thread that this was the stupidest most unworkable and impossible suggestion ever (and that maybe newbies should shut the hell up when talking to their more experienced and knowledgeable betters) yet just a few months later, Orbx introduced its very popular and useful compatibility forum and later more tightly consolidated its patch information. (and that's another story!!) :LMAO:

 

The point is, that the state of the art moves on. What was the accepted norm before, becomes today's horror story (tape drives vs floppys, vs dvd's) and that sometimes change can be good and maybe even worth emulating, if possible.

 

I would love to see the fsx market mature in this direction, and for flight to progress more in the direction of the depth of fsx. But I am not to sure which is most likely!

Oddly enough, some customers have complained about having to download an entire installer whenever we've completed a "Service Release", but honestly this is the only practical way to keep every customer "up to date." We'd have to have a new complete installer for new customers in any case, so having current customers download and install the complete package is far simpler than having both new and old customers download the original release package, then have to separately download and install multiple "update installers" to bring them up to speed...

 

I wish there were a way to develop a similar "Slip-Stream" update package such as Flight uses for FSX titles, but alas that isn't achievable...

Oddly enough, some customers have complained about having to download an entire installer whenever we've completed a "Service Release", but honestly this is the only practical way to keep every customer "up to date." We'd have to have a new complete installer for new customers in any case, so having current customers download and install the complete package is far simpler than having both new and old customers download the original release package, then have to separately download and install multiple "update installers" to bring them up to speed...

 

I wish there were a way to develop a similar "Slip-Stream" update package such as Flight uses for FSX titles, but alas that isn't achievable...

 

Oh well. Its a very cool feature, and I suspect its one of the almost subliminal attractions of flight and its whole "It just works" experience. I picture potential flight 3rd parties working within such an environment, and imagine an ecosystem so vibrant, it might put the current one to shame, at least as far of ease of use to consumers. I wonder if we might look back one day at the current kludge of affairs in the fsx market as ruefully as we think of computer tape drive games now.

 

Did we actually go through all that? Yikes!

Oddly enough, some customers have complained about having to download an entire installer whenever we've completed a "Service Release", but honestly this is the only practical way to keep every customer "up to date." We'd have to have a new complete installer for new customers in any case, so having current customers download and install the complete package is far simpler than having both new and old customers download the original release package, then have to separately download and install multiple "update installers" to bring them up to speed...

 

I whole-heartedly agree. I've adopted the same thing. It's much easier to just strip the older version and reinstall from scratch anew than to step through patches.

I certainly agree with the OP here, with the Flight ecosystem it is really nice in regards to getting udpates! Not having to worrry about searching them out and installing properly, pretty darn seamless the way it is done now.

I whole-heartedly agree. I've adopted the same thing. It's much easier to just strip the older version and reinstall from scratch anew than to step through patches.

 

It seems logical. The problem is when you have a separate store, and then the website of the scenery creators. When the creators create a patch, when does the already patched version become the one offered by the store? In many cases the answer is whenever we finally get around to it. You end up purchasing a product then instantly playing patch catch-up even though the patch may have been released months and months ago.

 

Having all that be eliminated is invaluable.

 

At least to consumers. (I wont even go into installation order for multiple patches and patches made unnecessary by follow-on patches that include the previous ones if you are understanding it all correctly, which you may not be.............)

 

And the do not install this patch if you have already installed patch XYZ or you computer will 'splode, taking out your fsx installation in a conflagration worthy of Micheal Bay. :LMAO:

yeah, the more experienced folks dont have much patience for the whiney new customers. While they are always helpful, they arent too moved by the griping.

 

If I was forced to choose, I'd prefer to be able to download a constellation and a free scenery upgrade for my home town and, if I had to, just deal with the manual installation headache. I would even sign up to install WoAI again > , after I refilled my valume script.

 

Case in point! I try not to be an idiot. I follow instructions well, with a minimum of dazed drooling, but Woai left me utterly glazed and dazed multiple times. :Monkey: I finally ran away, screaming. Don't get me wrong. I am sure its a wonderful project. I admire the heck out of the screen-shots, and I bow at the feet of all who persevered, but I finally paid for an AI program that did not have an installation learning curve quite that large.

 

Not to mention the ever-present compatibility worries of editing duplicates. :Nail Biting:

Sometimes we are damned if we do using installers and damned it we don't. Personally I agree with installers since it does allow the developer to make sure the user installation is as it should be (I had a case recently where a user renamed the main executable and then wondered why the app stopped working). However which ever way I go someone wants the opposite. There are folks who will not touch installers and others who will not touch manual installs. My experience however is that manual installs are a recipe for much trouble.

Sometimes we are damned if we do using installers and damned it we don't. Personally I agree with installers since it does allow the developer to make sure the user installation is as it should be (I had a case recently where a user renamed the main executable and then wondered why the app stopped working). However which ever way I go someone wants the opposite. There are folks who will not touch installers and others who will not touch manual installs. My experience however is that manual installs are a recipe for much trouble.

 

Flight could not really afford to do it either way. The people on forums like this are generally a self selected bunch whose interest in the subject is so high that we are willing to jump through almost any hoop to get the the creamy center of the sim, and as Vonboo pointed out, the old hands to which this has all become second nature often have little patience for the newcomer with his/her hair standing straight up saying "What the heck is all this!!!"

 

All to often, that newcomer is sent packing by some "Forum Bull" (my name for self appointed guardians of forum orthodoxy) who says "Because that's the way it is! Shut up with your dumb questions!!! RTFM!!!!" and nods in satisfaction as the "noob" slinks away and is never heard from again. The hobby shrinks by .000000000000001 (again) and continues its slow slide towards oblivion.

 

The modern user experience is of booting up a program, being told an update is available, saying yes or no to the update, and forgetting about it. Newcomers to Flight Sims are going to expect those modern standards, and are going to be unsatisfied with anything less, and MS got it right in this instance. Its just a shame we cant transfer that tech to other, older Sims.

Case in point! I try not to be an idiot. I follow instructions well, with a minimum of dazed drooling, but Woai left me utterly glazed and dazed multiple times. :Monkey: I finally ran away, screaming. Don't get me wrong. I am sure its a wonderful project. I admire the heck out of the screen-shots, and I bow at the feet of all who persevered, but I finally paid for an AI program that did not have an installation learning curve quite that large.

 

Not to mention the ever-present compatibility worries of editing duplicates. :Nail Biting:

 

I myself found Woai pretty easy to use. Just downloaded all those packages, installer, select those packages in installer and run. Only problem was few duplicates that I created when I accidentally installed some of them twice. Though it was kind of time consuming.

 

Though automatic updates have their bright side, also bad sides too as you do not see what it is exactly doing and what is edited. If you ever want to do some own modding and such you can quickly find it all getting broken by automatic update in many games.

 

Myself I am glad that FSX has its learning curve, overcoming it has made me generally better computer user and now I can better solve all kinds of problems with programs.