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LorneJordan

My Treatment at BA Virtual, Round 2

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My Treatment at British Virtual Airways ROUND 2

 

Some of you will recall that recently, I posted a message here about my treatment at BA Virtual. Some flightsim and avsim.com members and a member of the BA Board of Directors asked me to reapply to BA, assuring me that my first experience was a simple misunderstanding. Others mistakenly thought I was queue jumping, which is hard for me to comprehend, because I just wanted to keep my place in line. Because I wanted to fly David Maltby’s BAC 111 so badly, and no other VA flies her, and I had been working with a graphic artist to redevelop her paintkit, I thought I’d give it another go.

 

On my second attempt to join BA Virtual, my treatment from HR Representative Antony McGarr and HR Director Tom Mosely was beyond appalling. Here are the email chains for you to see. I’ve edited little bits to protect the graphic artist’s privacy and for length, but nothing of any consequence. I am hoping the viewership here admonishes these people for their outrageous conduct, and I am somehow allowed to join due to public pressure. If I showed contempt, as they accuse, surely a little distain for their conduct is justified? If I am wrong, I welcome thoughtful criticism of how I have handled this debacle. However, I truly believe people who are willing to understand the details will see that the staff at BA are the ones who demonstrated completely unwarranted contempt and rudeness for an applicant whose only mistake was challenging them on lying to me, and getting the facts wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll send a note of apology. If I'm right, I'll complain to vatsim. You decide.

 

The Executive Summary:
-

After waiting 3 weeks, I was told to correct a minor, fixable error on my app. When I contacted HR as instructed, I was informed that my application was deleted! I would have to re-apply and wait again.

-When I appealed to the CEO, I was again told to re-apply, and made fun of me for my “presumed sense of influence.” He instructed me to go to the end of 137 person long list (when I was at #41, which meant several more weeks of waiting). I thought this unfair, contrary to what I was originally told, and just plain rude.

-When I posted my original story on avsim and flightsim, members privately encouraged me to re-apply, including a BA Board Member. So, wanting to fly David Maltby’s BAC 111, which only BA allows, I thought surely we could resolve our differences. Based on their encouragement, I decided to give it another go.

-When I re-applied, as per HR staffer and CEO instructions, the very same HR staffer immediately terminated my app because he didn't like my avsim post!!! When I appealed to the HR Dir., he wrote an appallingly rude confirmation of my termination, and obviously got a lot of facts wrong as well.

 

The Detailed Summary:

HR Staff Antony McGarr wrote:

We regret to inform you that your request to join British Airways Virtual was rejected at the application stage for the following reason: I am unsure why you now wish to apply again, especially after your posting in AVSIM. I tried to explain last time that had you just sent me another application, then I was fully prepared to respect your place in the queue but you did not seem prepared to listen to me. You then wrote to the CEO as someone with "more common sense", and decided to go off on one again. I find that quite offensive to be honest; I am a health care professional in my real life and consider myself to have integrity and common sense. I think taking into consideration your dissatisfaction with British Airways Virtual, then it would be best for all parties if you found a VA more able to satisfy your requirements. I am sure you will perceive this as being treated "shabbily" again, as you put it, but I think we are clearly just falling short of your expectations. For that I can only apologise and wish you luck in finding a VA that you are happy with.

Antony McGarr British Airways Virtual HR Team

 

***

 

I responded:

So, you have rather prejudically terminated my app again. You indicated you were prepared to respect my place in the queue. When? You informed me that you had deleted my app., sir, before I even emailed you to voice my concern. Thus, either former statement is a lie, or the latter one is. Integrity and common sense has nothing to do with being a health care professional. Do we have to have credentials to fly with BA? I am a former ambulance paramedic, soldier with the Canadian Armed Forces, and I am currently a health inspector. I have degrees in law and education, and I am a teacher in good standing with the Ontario College of Teachers. Does this make me a better person? I should hope not. I'm just a person who wants to fly a BAC-1-11 I've spent hundreds of hours on with a little structure and fellowship.

I'm going to ask you to reconsider your decision. Let us put the past in the past. My post on avsim (and there is another on flightsim.com with many more responders) is completely factual. 100% of the comments on flightsim.com were very supportive. A member of your Board has even privately contacted me to ask me to re-apply, and is looking into the details of why I was treated like crap. He told me that if BA wouldn't make things right, I should take my grievance to VATSIM, as they track this sort of thing with VAs that want to partner with them. I am prepared to do that and a lot more if you want to continue with this arrogant attitude. If I am to be denied, surely it must be because I failed your entrance exam, or some section of your code of conduct, which would require membership in the first place. I cannot see any reason why, as mature adults, you and I cannot put our differences of perspective behind us and allow my application to go forward, without prejudice. I ask for fair treatment, for my place in the queue to be respected, and for a little dignity. If you ignore me, then be prepared for a battle. I didn't make any errors in the app THIS time, and was invited to re-apply by the CEO and a Board member. So, what will it be?

 

***

 

Mr. McGarr replies by informing me he will forward the matter to Tom Mosely, HR Director, for a final decision. Thus, here is the email I sent to Mr. Mosely:

 

To: Tom Moseley

I understand that Antony McGarr has referred my case to you for a final say. I would just like to summarize my position: About a month ago, I applied to BA, made an error on the ivao box, and after 3 weeks of waiting, got an email informing me of the error. I was told it was correctable if I got in touch right away, which I did. The response was shocking: It was a fatal error and my app. was already deleted, I would have to re-apply. The waiting list was twice as long as when I started at that point, making for a 6 to 8 week wait. This seemed quite unfair and totally unnecessary. So, I appealed to keep my app. position to Mr. McGarr and the CEO. The CEO replied (in a very mocking tone) that with my "presumed" influence, I should have no trouble flying elsewhere, etc., and completely ignored every point I tried to make. Neither one of them cared about a BAC-111 I had worked on for the site, and their tone was unmistakably rude and dismissive. They seemed to think I wanted to jump the line and be treated differently. I did not. I just wanted to join without having to wait another 2 months because of a simple error, especially one that I was told was entirely correctable. So, in my frustration, I posted an article on Avsim and Flightsim about this experience, which I did not embellish one iota. 80% of the respondents on Avsim and 100% of the respondents on Flightsim were very supportive. I was told to complain to Vatsim, which I have not yet done. More importantly, a Board member from BA very courteously told me he would look into the matter, AND he strongly encouraged me to re-apply!!! I took this advice to heart, and re-applied, because a few other posts also re-assured me that BA was actually not at all like what I had experienced to-date. When I did so, Mr. McGarr promptly terminated my application with extreme prejudice, a move which I found profoundly outrageous, as both him and the CEO had just finished telling me that this was precisely what I had to do to get things going again. He mentioned the Avsim post, which he found offensive. I replied to him that everything in that post was factual, that (most of) the respondents were very supportive, and that a Board member asked me to reapply. I suspect he then realized he was quite out of order, as his final response was to put my fate in your hands for a final decision. All I ask is to have my position in line respected (this time), and be treated with a bit of fairness and dignity. I spend a lot of time flying this BAC, as it is real world certified and a lot of fun to fly because of the lack of automation, and would like to do so with a bit of structure and comradery that only BA offers (because only you let members fly her). In exchange, you get a real world pilot, a fantastic new version of the BAC-111, and someone who will re-post a fabulous ending to an awkward start on Avsim and Flightsim. What say you sir? Will BA give me a chance and let bygones be bygones, or am I to be treated like a pyriah, terminated before even having a chance to join because of a misunderstanding that snowballed into this rather sad story? You have to admire my persistence, if nothing else... Believe me, you won't be sorry for letting me in. I would like to start a fresh page with Mr. McGarr and your CEO... I await your decision. Regards,

Lorne

 

***

 

Tom Mosely’s response:

 

Hello Lorne, I have seen all of your emails to both the HR department and the CEO and I can say all I have seen nothing but contempt for the management team here at British Airways Virtual. As has already been said by much of the team here, any further applications will be refused. Someone with the kind of attitude that you have shown on several occasions is not welcome here at British Airways Virtual. I wish you luck with your search for another VA. Please note that we have sent you several emails explaining the situation to you and any further emails from you will now be ignored.

Kind Regards, Tom Moseley Director of Human Resources

British Airways Virtual

 

***

 

My final response, edited for length:

 

Hello Tom-

You wrote: "Contempt for the management team... As has already been said by much of the mgmt. team here, further applications will be refused." You obviously cannot think or read with any degree of accuity, sadly. The only person there who has denied my application is Antony McGarr. That is 1 (one) person... The only people I have expressed anything close to contempt for is Antony, for obvious reasons, and perhaps your CEO, who ignored much of the content of my letter to him. When the CEO did reply, he mocked me with my "presumed influence" which was entirely outrageous, completely uncalled for, beyond rude, and just plain odd.

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Again this isn't really anything to do with the Avsim staff, so the thread should not really be in here, but in any case, it looks like a case of hoist your own petard to me.

 

On the face of it, you want to appear to have offered an olive branch, in writing: 'Let us put the past in the past.' but then immediately followed it with the somewhat less than concilliatory: 'I am prepared to do that and a lot more if you want to continue with this arrogant attitude.'

 

Similarly, you wrote: 'I cannot see any reason why, as mature adults, you and I cannot put our differences of perspective behind us' then followed it with the open threat that: 'If you ignore me, then be prepared for a battle.'

 

Surely you can see that with an approach like that, there could really be only one conclusion?

 

Al

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By battle, I meant the battle of public opinion by good, fair, honest and judicial readers like you. I just can't believe that it is ok to lie to someone (saying it is a fixable error), mock someone (from the CEO no less), and ban someone when I reapplied at the urging of several members, including a BA Board Member. This began because I didn't appreciate having my application deleted. A little common sense, understanding, and fellowship would suggest, to me at least, that they should have accepted my 2nd application without prejudice, and apologized for saying the original error was fixable at the outset, but then deleting it forthwith.

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Again this isn't really anything to do with the Avsim staff...........

Yes!

 

There was plenty of this exact same thing (by the same exact person) over here: http://forum.avsim.n...20#entry2362920

 

LorneJordan,

This is not the place for this.

Topic locked again. No more of these please.

 

EDIT:

Seems permission was given for this thread so I'm unlocking it and leaving it open for now.

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It's surprising that permission seems to have been given for a second thread to be opened in respect of a private dispute (of no great relevance to AVSIM's general readership) between Mr Jordan and British Airways Virtual.

 

But, as the topic is being allowed to run, to some extent I feel compelled to echo the thoughts that Al expressed above. It seems inconceivable that it didn't occur to Mr Jordan that writing in such a combative way to the group of individuals who volunteer their spare time to administer BAV for the benefit and enjoyment of its members, could result in anything other than the conclusion he experienced.

 

It's also surprising that he fails to see that the selectively published correspondence that he supposes will support 'his case', in fact reveals absolutely clearly why his application to BAV ended up being dismissed. But, of course, there's none so blind as they that will not see.

 

Advice to Mr Jordan - when asking for permission to join any private members club, it rarely favours your application's chances of success to engage in such combative, critical correspondence with the very people you're asking to admit you to the club.

 

I should express a vested interest here - I've been a very happy member of BAV since October 2010. I have found it a very professional, comradely, supportive organisation full of individuals (from top management down to new recruits) only too pleased to help and assist each other on anything to do with enjoying this great hobby/obsession that we all engage in.

 

About the only type of person who doesn't fare well within BAV is the newcomer who, from the outset, tries to lecture all and sundry about what's wrong with the organisation, what needs to be done (immediately, of course), and who needs to do it. With such individuals, the thought often occurs that it was maybe a pity that their ill-fit with the organisation wasn't spotted at the application stage.

 

In this case it appears that it was.

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If this topic is allowed to run then i can only say that this man is a conceited **. Under no circumstances would i let an anti AVSIM thread run in our forum. Thanks for your support moderators.

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Whichever way you cut it the behaviour by the applicant is disproportional in context with the original refused application. BAV has a process in place for application and makes it quite clear the criteria to meet the application. The OP made an error on the application and had a chance to rectify this but chose instead to engage in a rather shambolic shaming and blaming exercise on this and other web sites.

 

Think about this, if you were applying for a passport, a driving licence, or something similar and you enter incorrect details would you expect to fastrack the queue or have the relevant authority issue the documents just because you have a good reputation for travelling or driving? You possibly could give examples on some authority somewhere that would hold your place in the line but remember BAV is a site run by volunteers who already have a high workload with what they do without adding to it the manual intervention of processes that work automatically when applicants submit the correct data.

 

The bottom line is this, the OP could have had the dispute with BAV in private and worked out a solution but has instead brought it out into the open and has therefore brought BAV into disrepute. That alone is a reason to disqualify him from ever joining.

 

John

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Now that BAV has (I think) been given an opportunity to reply surely this thread shouild now be locked.

 

If the OP ever thought he had a chance of joining BAV he's forfeited it because of his own unacceptable behaviour. BAV is a private organisation and no one has the right to join.

 

Incidentally, the same threads were started on flightSim: the first was locked and the second deleted.

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I think a little perspective is needed here; it's only a virtual airline for crying out loud. Would be lovely to be in such a position where this is such a big worry to me...

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Think about this, if you were applying for a passport, a driving licence, or something similar and you enter incorrect details would you expect to fastrack the queue

 

It's a computer game...pretend airplanes and pretend airlines.

The OP may not have handled in the best manner but the heads of this pretend airline are acting like children.

Comparing it to applying for a driver license or passport...come on its pretend.

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Hi.

 

It's very easy to forget when sitting at a keyboard & monitor that at the other end there is another person. LorneJordan, it's hardly surprising that your second application was rejected. I think you should learn some better manners, mate.

 

 

 

Regards,

D

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Well yes, there is the fact that it is 'pretend' as you say ecg, but what is not pretend is the friendships one often gains in a VA, so there is nothing pretend about the very likeable social aspects of it.

 

I think that's really part of the issue here, in that when someone applies to join such a circle of friends/associates and displays a somewhat combative approach, then they are not really sending the right signals.

 

In the grand scheme of things, like most hobbies, it is not of Earth-shattering importance whether one indulges or not, but if people like it, then that is reason enough to take it at least somewhat seriously. It wouldn't make much difference if I stopped going to my martial arts classes, but if I did so, there is no doubt that I'd be missing out on the social aspect of it even disregarding all the other reasons why I enjoy it.

 

Pesonally, if I wanted to fly a virtual BAC 1-11 in BA colours that badly, I'd fire up FS and go fly it, but in appearing belligerent, I would also be aware that this may possibly have proved to be an attitude which has precluded me from flying it online via a shared cockpit in that VA, or taking part in other social doings. Thus I don't think you did yourself any favours with your approach and the way you phrased things Lorne, and I would perhaps analyse that a bit closer if I were you, with a view to eventually finding something you are happy with.

 

It is often difficult to spot one's own shortcomings, and god knows we've all got them, but if nothing else, then this thread, and the concensus it seems to have garnered is at least some useful feedback on one thing you might look toward changing a little.

 

Al

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It's a computer game...pretend airplanes and pretend airlines.

The OP may not have handled in the best manner but the heads of this pretend airline are acting like children.

Comparing it to applying for a driver license or passport...come on its pretend.

 

It may only be a computer game and as you say "pretend" but the people involved in it are not pretend and whilst it might not be as important as a drivers licence or passport the process of application between people still takes place and the behaviour of the OP would be unacceptable to anyone on the end of it. Thats the comparison, not what is being applied for but the way you behave in engaging other people.

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LorneJordan,

 

Don't know what you hopped to achieve by lying to me yesterday, as after checks with fellow staff it was pretty easy to find out that permission was not given for this thread. Its locked permanently this time and you have rightfully been banned by my colleagues.

 

This kind of stuff is not welcome here.

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